Question about SS13 and licensing

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mizolo
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Question about SS13 and licensing

Post by mizolo » 23 Oct 2017, 16:37

Ok ... so i'm starting a new server ... bla bla bla not gonna advertise it here.

Here is what I want to know.


I know TG station has an AGPL V4.1 or whatever the fuck it is ... License.

Anyway, it's open sourced ... I was wondering:

1: Since it has the "copy-left" principle ... isn't Baystation12 based off TG station?????????

2: IF Baystation12 took code from TG station ... why don't they say the licensing shit???

3: IF Baystation12 modified it so heavily that it's considered completely separate from TG station ... what determines that???

4: If Baystation12 did NOT copy off of TG station, would it be able to be copied for closed-source???

5: If Baystation12 is still under TG station's licensing ... wouldn't the copy-left principle apply to it??? Therefore having this server have to be open sourced???

Final Question: I don't understand why if TG station allows it's code to be copied, manipulated, and other-wise changed or even COPIED PURELY, and other people are allowed to make money off the exact copy ... why can't they just go closed source??? It makes no sense because ... if it's the same ... then it doesn't matter if it's open-source or not ... but if it's different ... I just ... I don't understand.



I know this is a bunch of law shit, but being a dev for NML and see-ing the shit they had to put up with because of licensing and a bunch of other unfortunate events ... I kinda DON'T want this to happen to my server.

If you guys could answer this ... that would be GREAT.
Anekcahap Volkov
never abandons a patient as a medic, even when a ravager is on him 1 v 1
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Feweh
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Re: Question about SS13 and licensing

Post by Feweh » 23 Oct 2017, 17:47

mizolo wrote:
23 Oct 2017, 16:37
Sent: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:40 pm
From: mizolo
Recipient: Feweh

I know it's wierd to be pestering you about this, but ... can you say something on my post in Other games about the SS13 and licensing? Because ... to be honest ... i'm genuinely confused to fuck about it.
Long version I don't know, Apop is better at this.

I just know that a few years ago CM had to backtrack on the TG code to a licensing copy that allowed us to go Closed-Source. Because CM backtracked we lost out on many months of development and put CM far behind in terms of updates and modern quality of life shit.

I literally think its simply because at one point they switched the licensing to maintain always open-source and to close off the ability for servers to go closed-source.

Apop will hit you with the technical bullshit.

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apophis775
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Re: Question about SS13 and licensing

Post by apophis775 » 23 Oct 2017, 19:31

So, instead of going into the full history, I'll stick to what's relevent:

1. Many years back, Goon published the first open-source SS13. It was R4407 and published under the CC-BY-NC-SA 3.0 license. The original license, was very open and didn't prevent closed source or anything like that so long as you gave credit.
2. A bit later, /tg/ was birthed. And, shortly after that, GPL was added to the license. Now, the legality of this is up for debate at the moment, but most people accept GPL as the proper license since CC-BY-NC-SA 3.0 isn't a software license, but a creative content license that's very open.
3. A bit after that, baystation was born. They forked off /tg/ and kept the GPL.
4. In around 2014, /tg/ decided to add AGPL onto the license. This was because there were several close-source servers that were downstream of /tg/ and of bay and some developers (not all) viewed the ability to be closed-source under GPL as a loophole.
5. Around Dec 2014/Jan2015 Bay also applied the AGPL license, as they needed an update from /tg/ they could only get by pulling and taking in the AGPL.
6. CM launched in Dec 2014 as closed-source, so we were around before the GPL.

Basically, if you grab anything from after Dec/Jan 2015, you are 100% defintely in AGPL land and need open-source.
Anything from Before that on Bay, and if you find the /tg/ commit, will be GPL and able to be closed-source.
However, most of that stuff was written for Beyond 5.08 and earlier, and will need a fair amount of updating.

Let me know if you have any more questions.
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mizolo
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Re: Question about SS13 and licensing

Post by mizolo » 23 Oct 2017, 19:40

I DO have a couple of questions actually:
1: Do you know where the copy of closed-source-able code is? Or where I can start looking?
2: How do I update the old code to the current version of BYOND? Do I simply just hit the "update" button in DM?
3: Do you have any suggestions or tips for me as a server-starter like what to avoid and what to look for?
Anekcahap Volkov
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Re: Question about SS13 and licensing

Post by Feweh » 23 Oct 2017, 21:26

mizolo wrote:
23 Oct 2017, 19:40

3: Do you have any suggestions or tips for me as a server-starter like what to avoid and what to look for?
Ya, don't waste your time if you have no DEV ability and you're simply running a generic server.

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Re: Question about SS13 and licensing

Post by apophis775 » 24 Oct 2017, 01:59

mizolo wrote:
23 Oct 2017, 19:40
I DO have a couple of questions actually:
1: Do you know where the copy of closed-source-able code is? Or where I can start looking?
2: How do I update the old code to the current version of BYOND? Do I simply just hit the "update" button in DM?
3: Do you have any suggestions or tips for me as a server-starter like what to avoid and what to look for?

Firstly, don't mind feweh too much, he's very blunt. But yeah, if you are just trying to "run" a generic server and you have no dev plans or anything it's basically a waste of time.

1. As far as Bay, I "sort of" know. I know "around" where to look. But not the exact location.
2. To update the old code to the new code, you look for the parts that don't work, and then begin fixing them. It's all code issues that need fixing, not like a "source update" but more of a "how things worked" update. Things like layers and such.
3. Be VERY VERY VERY careful who you bring onto your staff before launch. The #1 killer for servers is bringing people on from the SS13 community who are giant gaping assholes. Check into people you want to place in power. If you want, send me a message and I'll run a check in host-chat and across our notes. Last thing you want, is a headmin who is a known shitter. Also, come up with an interesting concept and stick with it.
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Re: Question about SS13 and licensing

Post by mizolo » 24 Oct 2017, 15:39

First off I know this server will take a LOOONG ASS TIME to construct ... as in ... like ... months ... before actually even opening it up to testers.
Second, I love how blunt you are Feweh, I am very blunt myself, I DO NOT have any developing abilities, I am learning on the fly.
Thirdly, I intend to dive head-first into a situation I know nothing about, devoting lots of resources and using trail and error. I also expect to be fucked over in ways I can't imagine, as well as sometimes wanting to quit and throw my computer across the room because of a major bug or 2.
Fourthly, I intend to check with lots of people about who I make staff. IRL i've had many people, including my own friends, betray me, fuck me over, and in general kill my self-esteem. Those are mistakes I do not intend to repeat with my server.


Thank you for your input and feedback.
Anekcahap Volkov
never abandons a patient as a medic, even when a ravager is on him 1 v 1
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