NOT IT syndrome: A regular issue among xenos

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Renomaki
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NOT IT syndrome: A regular issue among xenos

Post by Renomaki » 07 Oct 2017, 13:18

The queen is one of the most powerful castes in the game, not only being the one that control the entire hive, but also is quite a deadly fighter at higher maturities. She has the power to roar down DOZENS of people in a single setting, can lay eggs that can allow her children (or herself) to infect and spread their influence far and wide, can emit some strong buffs to assist her and her children, and her presence alone slowly makes her children grow stronger and stronger, until they become an unstoppable force of death.

Yet, more often than not, you have so many refuse the opportunity to take on such an empowering role. Even with the new "spawn as queen" option, sometimes you have players that DC shortly afterwards, require an awkward request for ghosts to take her place.

I know that is can be a bit of a stressful position sometimes, what with underlings often judging you for the slightest choices, as well as the fact that marines are quick to target you should you come into view, but at the same time, it is SO SATISFYING to be the big honcho of the hive, a vital component in any siege or hive-defense, whose roar can turn the tide of any battle if used properly. It is like a more interesting version of the human CO.

Now, I know what most of you are going to say, and yes, I understand that there are castes that are much more fun and casual to play (such as hunters and spitters). People don't always want to take on the responsibility of queen every round, but at the same time, if you happen to be a drone and the queen dies, then why would you want to remain a mere drone?

I ask this, because I had a recent round of xeno where our hive lost a queen, and the 4 drones we had wordlessly refused to become queen. This concerns me a lot, which has brought me to start a discussion on why queen is such a disliked role despite the upsides of it. It is, after all, better than being a weak-ass drone...
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Re: NOT IT syndrome: A regular issue among xenos

Post by El Defaultio » 07 Oct 2017, 13:22

because the entire xeno hive relys on you not to be shit

every xeno has seen a shit queen lose the round

they do not want to be a shit queen, so they dont go queen. some people don't want that kind of chance to fuck up horrifically.

didnt think this needed to be asked.
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Re: NOT IT syndrome: A regular issue among xenos

Post by Challenger » 07 Oct 2017, 13:26

I would far, far rather people refuse to take on roles of higher responsibility due to their own perceived incompetence than arrogantly bite off more than they can chew.

When I played xeno I used to be the same way; started as drone, sentinel, runner, once I got the basics of those I went through the T2s, then the T3s, and finally queen.

Something something power should go to the people who don't want it

edit: by the way thanks for asking even if the answer's a bit simple ^, your topics/questions tend to generate some good discussion.
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Re: NOT IT syndrome: A regular issue among xenos

Post by Honkintuga » 07 Oct 2017, 13:29

Because Colonial Marines community is the most big server at SS13 and you will eventually find incompetent people, just like at muhrunes team.

There's no way to fix this unless you want to completly make it super secret like child rape sim (lifeweb) but not even that works.

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Re: NOT IT syndrome: A regular issue among xenos

Post by manezinho » 07 Oct 2017, 17:10

Queen has too much responsibility and a high chance of fucking simple things up imo. Don't want to cause issues for a hive and have them wait for another queen just because you thought you could handle it.

I personally avoid queen at all costs, there usually seems to be good queens anyways (except for the odd round here and there).
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Re: NOT IT syndrome: A regular issue among xenos

Post by Renomaki » 08 Oct 2017, 00:13

Honkintuga wrote:
07 Oct 2017, 13:29
Because Colonial Marines community is the most big server at SS13 and you will eventually find incompetent people, just like at muhrunes team.

There's no way to fix this unless you want to completly make it super secret like child rape sim (lifeweb) but not even that works.
The strangely ironic thing is you are bound to have incompetent people taking on important roles such as Spec and Smartgunner, and yet you have plenty of people taking such vital roles without a care in the world.

I sometimes think people lean more towards roles with lots of power and little responsibility.
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Re: NOT IT syndrome: A regular issue among xenos

Post by Szunti » 08 Oct 2017, 04:31

Is it really that much responsibility? I mean if the Queen is responsive, lays eggs, makes sure xenos are aware when she is going to screech and stays guarded by other xenos (this needs the intention from said xenos too, so often fails), she is already almost perfect for me even if she misses a couple screeches.

I don't take her because it's not fun commanding xenos who don't cooperate but blame you if things goes awry. Most of the time there is a couple who listen and obey, I love those players. But it's all about conflicts with the others. They all have their idea what should be done, can't accept that the most important is that we all follow the same plan and they should give in sometimes.

Plus I should tell sentinels to guard hosts, but I just can't, in good conscience, force players to be out of the fun part of the game.

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Re: NOT IT syndrome: A regular issue among xenos

Post by Ghodere » 08 Oct 2017, 09:32

She's fat. It's fun to be fast.

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Re: NOT IT syndrome: A regular issue among xenos

Post by Reuben Owen » 08 Oct 2017, 15:42

most of the time I can't pay attention to the computer 1-3+ hours straight due to irl things (i.e. other ppl needing to use the computer) so while I'd love to be queen I don't wanna be that queen who stands there for 15-30 mins while the marines are attacking, not telling them anything

edit: but when you're just a runner or something you can chill in the corner for as long as you need
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Re: NOT IT syndrome: A regular issue among xenos

Post by DadLantern » 08 Oct 2017, 16:12

Reuben Owen wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 15:42
most of the time I can't pay attention to the computer 1-3+ hours straight due to irl things (i.e. other ppl needing to use the computer) so while I'd love to be queen I don't wanna be that queen who stands there for 15-30 mins while the marines are attacking, not telling them anything

edit: but when you're just a runner or something you can chill in the corner for as long as you need
Just tell the admins if you need to go. They'll put another person in the queen so that they can play. Just don't SSD without telling anyone.

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Re: NOT IT syndrome: A regular issue among xenos

Post by Winter » 08 Oct 2017, 16:28

I don't take queen because I have no idea how to plan out to victory. I'd mostly lay eggs, screech when asked and tell people to try to infect before kill.

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Re: NOT IT syndrome: A regular issue among xenos

Post by misto » 08 Oct 2017, 20:47

being queen is a nuisance. youre expected to juggle everything, shit out eggs, order dorks around who dont listen. youre bitched at to go run up to marines to screech them constantly and when the marines finally get their thumbs out of their asses and huck bombs at you everything that ever went wrong is your fault in deadchat

queen deserves to be debuffed and rav+crusher buffed slightly in exchange so these supposed killing machines arent always cowering behind corners waiting for their mommy to come scream at the bad men for them

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Re: NOT IT syndrome: A regular issue among xenos

Post by Renomaki » 08 Oct 2017, 21:01

misto wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 20:47
queen deserves to be debuffed and rav+crusher buffed slightly in exchange so these supposed killing machines arent always cowering behind corners waiting for their mommy to come scream at the bad men for them
Wouldn't that make people even less willing to play queen?

I think what we need is more benefits to being queen. Maybe give her a stronger melee attack? Reduce the time it takes to gib someone with her special ability? Something that would make people want to fight over the right to be queen instead of shoving it off to play Ravager/Crusher/Hunter/etc.

On the Marine Side of things, we already have dozens upon dozens of people all fighting for the coveted role of spec. People get so upset at not getting what they want that they often either SSD or cyro right on the spot, often in the form of roles that have value (like medics or engineers). The reason why people crave it so much is because of how fun those roles normally are.

If the queen was more like a Spec, then maybe she'd have more people fighting over it.
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Re: NOT IT syndrome: A regular issue among xenos

Post by Casany » 08 Oct 2017, 21:17

I remember a round a few days ago where a queen made a hive in the Admin building on Big Red, a forward hive. They lost, and lost multiple xenos and it cost the xenos the round. In OOC it was a shitstorm of insults and hate against that queen with VERY few defenders. Sometimes even if they do the norm and just end up loosing they're humiliated by the people on their team

This is why people don't wanna play Queen. The slightest fuck up, even if not your fault entirely, will be put on you and you'll forever have that stain as being the queen who fucked it all up. No one would EVER want you to play another commanding role, and the person who failed would loose all confidence to play as a commanding role, leading to no learning whatsoever. Then, they never get any better so they never try again for fear of failure.

Reminds me of why I stopped playing queen for a while (about 10 months). I was on the sulaco, and we were going to make a move on the Cargo ladder. I climb up, but because a xeno next to me looked up the ladder I thought I had climbed up. Screeched belowdeck and climbed up just to be destroyed and killed instantly. I didn't cost the xenos the round but I was ridiculed. So I stopped playing command roles for a LONG time.

No one wants that stress, no one wants to fail, they just wanna have fun in their 2D spessmens VS ayyys.
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Re: NOT IT syndrome: A regular issue among xenos

Post by misto » 08 Oct 2017, 21:33

Renomaki wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 21:01
Wouldn't that make people even less willing to play queen?
the queen's incredible power is also her greatest burden, namely the power of the screech. the screech has become the sole lynchpin of most xeno strategies, forcing the queen constantly into frontline combat despite her also being their most vital life-sustaining, evolution-providing, egg-giving resource.

i think there is a lot of merit to the idea of spreading out the power a little. if other large castes are empowered and the queen debuffed maybe the queen wont have literally the entire hive constantly bitching at her to screech screech screech non fucking stop until she's bombed into the dirt(and then continue bitching at her in deadchat if she dies to the hail of gunfire from the marines they bitched at her to charge into) because theyll actually be expected to take some RESPONSIBILITY themselves.

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Re: NOT IT syndrome: A regular issue among xenos

Post by Winter » 08 Oct 2017, 21:39

Casany is right, too. I've seen some pretty brutal abuse hurled at queens and COs OOCly. Who wants that kind of abuse in a vidya game, outside of shooter players and LoL people?

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Re: NOT IT syndrome: A regular issue among xenos

Post by Hulkamania » 09 Oct 2017, 12:38

Playing command in this game is much like any kind of managment situation in the real world. You get shit on endlessly when you do a bad job (or a PERCEIVED bad job) and you don't get much praise at all when you do a good one. Praise goes towards the grunts who do the work and the insults go to the command staff. Much like the marines, the queen is the command staff of the aliens, as such you are under extremely harsh scrutiny from people who very well may have never even attempted to play queen.

Basically it sucks to try really hard to help everyone to have a good time and they shit on you endlessly for it. Especially if you try something new or interesting, people will be mad when it doesn't work.
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Re: NOT IT syndrome: A regular issue among xenos

Post by Carlos » 09 Oct 2017, 16:18

I've seen my fair share of crappy queens, but to be honest, I think the most important thing that a Queen needs, regardless of whether you're new or experienced, is communication. You need to emphasize communication with your team, and when you yourself are talking constantly in hivemind, others will be more inclined to follow suit, even if you have no clue what the Queen is supposed to do. I've seen Queens who are relatively new asking questions to her hivemind about what she should do next, and by the end of the round she's gottan such a good hang of it she's leading charges and feeling pretty confident and autonomous about what to do.

I have also seen Queens that don't know what's going on, don't communicate whatsoever, and ofcourse, they get yelled at by the others. Not saying that the toxicity is okay, but in my experience, and I think the moral of the story, is that even if you're new and have no idea what to do as a Queen, as long as you're communicative and receptive to the others in the hivemind, you will get some recommendations on what to do and will generally have a much more fun, relaxed, and educative environment than if you were to be new, ignorant, but kept yourself reserved. It's okay to be a meh Queen, Xenos don't need a great one to win as much as marines need a good CO to win, it's just about communication.

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Re: NOT IT syndrome: A regular issue among xenos

Post by Symbiosis » 10 Oct 2017, 12:22

Queen is not difficult. If anything, a Queen that utilizes basic tactical knowledge against the Marines will quite easily roll over the entire Marine force with a handful of Warrior caste Xenos.

The perceived "difficulty" of the Queen is the inability of most players/Queens to flank, think outside the box, or do anything besides charge repeatedly.

Whenever I see Marines complain about Xeno strengths I tell them to play Xeno more so they understand how balanced the developers have made things. The same goes for Xenos thinking the Queen is difficult. Play Marine and you'll quickly realize how terrible the Marines are at concentrated pushes or taking advantage of mistakes the Xenos make.

You won't be so intimidated by the other side - nor the prospect of playing the Queen. The old Bane quote applies here
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"BANE: Peace has cost you your strength, victory has defeated you."

Too many players just play one side; when you only play Xeno you don't learn to adapt, thus the more Robust Marines will outplay you.
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Re: NOT IT syndrome: A regular issue among xenos

Post by Damous » 11 Oct 2017, 15:08

Symbiosis wrote:
10 Oct 2017, 12:22
Queen is not difficult. If anything, a Queen that utilizes basic tactical knowledge against the Marines will quite easily roll over the entire Marine force with a handful of Warrior caste Xenos.

The perceived "difficulty" of the Queen is the inability of most players/Queens to flank, think outside the box, or do anything besides charge repeatedly.

Whenever I see Marines complain about Xeno strengths I tell them to play Xeno more so they understand how balanced the developers have made things. The same goes for Xenos thinking the Queen is difficult. Play Marine and you'll quickly realize how terrible the Marines are at concentrated pushes or taking advantage of mistakes the Xenos make.

You won't be so intimidated by the other side - nor the prospect of playing the Queen. The old Bane quote applies here
-

"BANE: Peace has cost you your strength, victory has defeated you."

Too many players just play one side; when you only play Xeno you don't learn to adapt, thus the more Robust Marines will outplay you.
By the point you get to elite queen its gg

I remember killing(I ordered the ayys to not take captives for implantation) like 60-ish marines with just 8/9(it was a number below 2 digits, one crusher, one ravager and a bunch of what i dont remember).

>Screech
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Re: NOT IT syndrome: A regular issue among xenos

Post by Liran343 » 12 Oct 2017, 19:08

Imo, the queen is just a boring caste. I played her 6 times and all I have to say that she isn't appealing as a hunter or a prae... You don't get the same action as they do.

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Re: NOT IT syndrome: A regular issue among xenos

Post by Sabactus » 13 Oct 2017, 12:00

I don't want the role because, if I screw up as a Spitter or Prae, then generally it's only me that is effected, if I screw up as a Queen I can ruin a round.
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Re: NOT IT syndrome: A regular issue among xenos

Post by GoliathTheDespoiler » 19 Oct 2017, 01:51

I like to consider myself a Queen main, and there are some major points that make playing her intimidating, difficult and frustrating.

List of reasons to not play queen
  • Steep learning curve. (Learning screech timing, egg placement, Phero adaptation, hive compositions, tactical construction, commanding)
  • Massive responsibility (Dying is a MAJOR error as Queen and can easily cost the xenos the round.)
  • Unusual playstyle (You are a juggernaut who has massive damage, an AOE stun, augments, terrible speed, engineering abilities, the ONLY source of respawns, and control over 10-50 other players.)
  • Leader blaming syndrome. (Xenos hating a queen and demanding usurpation for incredibly minor things or honest mistakes.)
With the way Byond works, one cannot simply practice being a Queen. Its do or die. This promotes an Elitism among those who have become experienced as Queens as they separate themselves and even degrade newcomers who hope or aspire to git gud.

The best ways I can see this resolved or improved is by creating a guide or group where Queens and Queen-wannabes share tactics, tips and tricks. This, in turn, makes me really want to work on my Queen guide. So I'm gonna go do that.
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Re: NOT IT syndrome: A regular issue among xenos

Post by Szunti » 19 Oct 2017, 06:16

Playing command for marines was similarly terrible until we got the new laws where disrecpect is a thing. Maybe giving eg. ancient sentinels a kind of MP role with a new type of xeno-stunning spit would help. Sentinels could spit and drag the stragglers back. They could also spit down the runners that run forward and block T3s from attacking or retreating. Sentinels, because they are the most boring class currently with nothing unique.

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Re: NOT IT syndrome: A regular issue among xenos

Post by Light » 20 Oct 2017, 07:59

Basically it's much better don't go Queen... Unless you really know how to play it or you know how to put eggs.

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