Praetorian Balance Discussion

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Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Swagile » 22 Mar 2017, 13:04

Crab_Spider wrote:So because there are medics around, the splatter is worthless? There are weeds all over the table fort, we don't need a drone. All the Marines are infected, we don't need a carrier. There are no mines, we don't need a crusher. There are medics around so what's the point of having a spitter? We don't need a Queen, all the xenos are Ancient and there's no point of having eggs.

Why not also mention how burn damage (or damage in general) slows you down, or how Praes have PHEROMONES (yknow, the stuff that increase specific stats for every alien in view)? Or how both Crushers and Ravagers are glass cannons? Why not also bring up the fact that CHEMS WEAR OFF? Oh hey, what about that decreasing cooldown as they mature? Yknow, something that is very useful for slowing down a group of Marines? But I digress. Who needs a Praetorian, when we have Boilers? The most fucking useless xenomorph there is. Not only do they have spend some time holding still, they'll also give off life, compromising the very notion of stealth. Or hey, they'll also be so slow, let alone easy pickings, their own DEFENSIVE ABILITY will fuck them over. You know what irks me about your statement on a competitent medic? The fact you fail to take into account that SUPPLIES RUN OUT, and fail to grasp the fact that medics are as killable as a standard.


Holy shit you just went on a spergfest that was barely related to the usefulness of a Prae in general.

Im talking about T3 slots here, not drones, or carriers (secretly T3 apparently, but *shrug).

Let me put it into perspective. Burn damage gives no lasting damage due to chems (and two tram pills [30u] lasts a long time). It slows you down, but even slowed down and with your gun up, you are STILL FASTER than a Prae will ever be (because a Prae is slower than a Boiler... which is still slower than a Queen last I checked). You can actually outrun a Prae faster than a Boiler. Boilers also have a four-five tile stun acid spit alongside their ability to give gas cover than can instantly kill + husk, and it can also stun large clumps of marines. It also is good at pushing Marines out of cover; something the Prae cannot do because to shoot acid at marines the Prae has to get into Pulse rifle range... which is disastrous because even one shotdisables its plasma regen and its slow as fuck so escaping from multiple bullet barrages is out of the question.

The boiler doesn't even need to be fast or stealthy because of exactly what you said; it just stands still for a few seconds, and fires gas clouds at people at SNIPER range. Which means it can be two to three times farther than a normal Marine player can see them and then run away the moment marines are pushing. Prae's do not have that luxury as they have to be at the front lines at all times to do damage and one good push kills a Prae because they can't escape fast enough.

Any good combat medic will have enough meds to survive 1 hour of INTENSE combat (river-push level of combat). 2 hours if its mildly intense (FOB defense level of combat). And any good combat medic will always stay around at least three marines at all times or will be in the center of the marine squad so killing them is only possible if your doing a huge xeno push or ALL the marines are incompetent (and if thats the case, you have bigger problems to worry about than a dead combat medic).

The rest I can't be bothered to reply to because its a bunch of hyperbole at best.
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Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby TheMaskedMan2 » 15 May 2017, 15:19

Cause my suggestion got locked i'm going to say my simple yet elegantly fantastically amazing suggestion to balance the Praetorian. Let it regen plasma despite being wounded. Wooosh! Ten times better. Thank you, thank you.
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Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby kroack » 16 May 2017, 01:44

I think a fourth kind of special prae spit would be a good balancing factor.
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Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby SpaceFarer » 18 May 2017, 15:46

Toroic wrote:2) Prae are stronger and faster near the queen



I think this a fucking brilliant idea. The word Praetorian comes from the Roman Praetorian Guard whose job was to protect the emperor. I think it would be great if the Prae was specialized to guard the Queen. I think buffing the Prae significantly while within 5-6 tiles of the Queen would be a genius move, not making Prae OP but giving them huge incentive to always watch over the queen.
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Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Nick123q23 » 26 May 2017, 00:53

The Praetorian is, in the games, a massive boss alien who isn't as agile as the other xenos, is a little on the slow side, but has enough health to shrug off un-concentrated fire and it's slashes are painful. They can also scream to alert other xenos of it's location and that it needs aid. They've never spit in the games.

The Praetorian we have is underwhelming, it dies if you sneeze on it, and instead of being a badass royal guardian, they're more like a sentient machinegun, or read: a car-sized spitter.
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Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Jroinc1 » 26 May 2017, 01:02

Swagile wrote:Prae's critical means shit all when you think about it.

Why? All you need is one tram pill and your fine getting hit, and it gives no lasting damage because burn damage doesn't give third degree burns, etc. that requires a doctor to heal. While T3's such as Ravagers and Crushers can cause fractures and broken bones, which will last the entire game unless a doctor fixes you.

So in the long term, against competent combat medics, a prae is a waste of a T3 slot.

Not really. Advanced burn kits are a pain to use, and heal too slow to be REALLY effective, and a 14-pill modded kelotane bottle only goes so far. Praes are great at ablating their way through everything we have, and while shipside resupply can help with this, it's rare that happens.
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Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby TheMaskedMan2 » 26 May 2017, 01:29

Nick123q23 wrote:The Praetorian is, in the games, a massive boss alien who isn't as agile as the other xenos, is a little on the slow side, but has enough health to shrug off un-concentrated fire and it's slashes are painful. They can also scream to alert other xenos of it's location and that it needs aid. They've never spit in the games.

The Praetorian we have is underwhelming, it dies if you sneeze on it, and instead of being a badass royal guardian, they're more like a sentient machinegun, or read: a car-sized spitter.

Praetorians HAVE spit acid in the games though. But otherwise you're right.
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Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Nick123q23 » 26 May 2017, 04:05

I've never seen it happen, but I'm not suggesting that we take spit away from praetorians either.

I just want big fuck you xenos
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Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby kooarbiter » 31 May 2017, 03:09

Nick123q23 wrote:The Praetorian is, in the games, a massive boss alien who isn't as agile as the other xenos, is a little on the slow side, but has enough health to shrug off un-concentrated fire and it's slashes are painful. They can also scream to alert other xenos of it's location and that it needs aid. They've never spit in the games.

The Praetorian we have is underwhelming, it dies if you sneeze on it, and instead of being a badass royal guardian, they're more like a sentient machinegun, or read: a car-sized spitter.


Actually you fight a spitter prae in 2010 pred campaign
BOOM



GOD DAMNIT HOW MANY MINES DO THEY HAVE?
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Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Szunti » 31 May 2017, 04:38

Greatly increased buffs from Queen's pheromones? Then prae would be the most flexible role.

With frenzy it would be faster than the frenzied Queen.
Guard would make it a wall eg. to slow the marine horde with her sacrifice while the Queen escapes.
Recovery would make it able to share a lot of plasma back to the Queen and would alleviate the problem of being hit and running out of plasma with the quick healing and fast plasma regen.
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Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Andkert » 31 May 2017, 15:38

Szunti wrote:Greatly increased buffs from Queen's pheromones? Then prae would be the most flexible role.

With frenzy it would be faster than the frenzied Queen.
Guard would make it a wall eg. to slow the marine horde with her sacrifice while the Queen escapes.
Recovery would make it able to share a lot of plasma back to the Queen and would alleviate the problem of being hit and running out of plasma with the quick healing and fast plasma regen.
This actually sounds like a cool way to buff the prae. Each upgrade of the prae should increase the self buff to pheromones, to the point where an elite prae is a foundation for a hive.
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Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Crab_Spider » 31 May 2017, 21:28

Andkert wrote:This actually sounds like a cool way to buff the prae. Each upgrade of the prae should increase the self buff to pheromones, to the point where an elite prae is a foundation for a hive.


I dig that. Also, allow Ancient Praes to become an Elite Empress that can ALSO spit acid. But they have a weakened screech (lowered radius).
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Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Nick123q23 » 01 Jun 2017, 04:09

Praetorians being able to molt into queens is apparently possible, and might be neat to experiment with
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Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Szunti » 01 Jun 2017, 05:33

Nick123q23 wrote:Praetorians being able to molt into queens is apparently possible, and might be neat to experiment with


I could think only about a couple options, but I think they all have problems:

If drone can still become the Queen, why would a praetorian do that losing all the evolution? It can't be beneficial for xenos to have the initial Queen replaced cause they are supposed to protect the Queen. It's sad enough a lot of players don't really care currently.

The other option is that only praetorians can evolve into Queen, except for the initial, of course. I'd support that. But that would mean that after losing the Queen if there is no praetorian, the game is over. Devs were not fond of ideas to punish xenos harshly for losing the Queen, though. Eg. I had the idea once to make xenos lose 1 level of evolution when the Queen dies, so maybe T3 starts to defend her instead of saving themself. But noone liked it.
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Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby kroack » 06 Jun 2017, 23:24

So resin spit. Thoughts?
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Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Andkert » 06 Jun 2017, 23:30

kroack wrote:So resin spit. Thoughts?
I'm not going to judge too much based on the first round. My only serious complaint is that the sticky resin can stack.

However, praes really needed a buff. I don't know if sticky resin spit was what praes NEEDED, but this new spit plus the pheromones buff really makes them more prevalent in a hive.
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Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby TheMaskedMan2 » 07 Jun 2017, 01:52

kroack wrote:So resin spit. Thoughts?

Resin stacking is most likely a bug that will be fixed.

I think the cooldown is too low and it should be longer to be less "spammy". or sticky resin being a bit more fragile.

Besides that I am going to wait for more rounds to say much else.
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Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Garrison » 07 Jun 2017, 04:41

TheMaskedMan2 wrote:Resin stacking is most likely a bug that will be fixed.

I think the cooldown is too low and it should be longer to be less "spammy". or sticky resin being a bit more fragile.

Besides that I am going to wait for more rounds to say much else.


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Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Crab_Spider » 07 Jun 2017, 05:57

Andkert wrote:I'm not going to judge too much based on the first round. My only serious complaint is that the sticky resin can stack.

However, praes really needed a buff. I don't know if sticky resin spit was what praes NEEDED, but this new spit plus the pheromones buff really makes them more prevalent in a hive.


It didn't needed the resin spit, it needed a speed boost and plasma regeneration while injured
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Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Ikmalmn » 07 Jun 2017, 06:17

On the sticky resin spit...

It's okay I guess, however, I do have a complaint on it's​ (being the sticky resin) health. In my opinion, this thing is a bitch and more than a whore to deal with. If you don't have a flamer, your fucked. It has too much health for how easily spammed it is. It just takes too long to destroy it, even with the help of other marines and a flamer, which mind you, still takes quite a time before it's gone.

For now, that's my only complaint with it. Prae's are still strong since the very beginning with it's horrifyingly deadly 40+ burn spit. Without​ medical attention, your kinda doomed into pain crit hell.
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Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Reuben Owen » 10 Jun 2017, 17:20

Praes are decent now. Mostly because of the new pheromone mechanics, not the third spit. Just put on recovery and you suddenly have a shitton of plasma all the time. The sticky resin stuff helps but the new recovery helps wayyyy more.
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Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby SpaceFarer » 11 Jun 2017, 20:15

Ikmalmn wrote:On the sticky resin spit...

It's okay I guess, however, I do have a complaint on it's​ (being the sticky resin) health. In my opinion, this thing is a bitch and more than a whore to deal with. If you don't have a flamer, your fucked. It has too much health for how easily spammed it is. It just takes too long to destroy it, even with the help of other marines and a flamer, which mind you, still takes quite a time before it's gone.

For now, that's my only complaint with it. Prae's are still strong since the very beginning with it's horrifyingly deadly 40+ burn spit. Without​ medical attention, your kinda doomed into pain crit hell.



I agree. It's like 7-8 knife chops to break it, same as a resin wall. I think it should have same hp as a nest or membrane. Especially if it can be spammed now. Imagine if drones could spit 8 walls at once, thats almost what this is.
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Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Drawsstuff » 18 Jun 2017, 11:50

(This doesn't account for the new resin spit I've heard about, we'll have to wait and see how it plays out)

The main Issue I've been seeing coming from complaints and suggestions in this thread is that a prae is a waste of a tier three. So I have a couple of ideas milling about all focused on what can you do to make them NOT a waste.
I really don't think a buff is needed, but the tier needs to be adjusted, the problem is, its too strong for tier two, and it's too weak for tier three. So I've come to this conclusion: Make them a separate tier entirely, dedicated to praes only. Now comes the question, how do you balance that? Well, I have two ideas floating in my head right now.

-Make them take much longer for a tier two to get (Double the time (Or any custom balanced amount) for the prompt to evolve appears)
-Make them require evolving from an upgraded tier two (To a certain level, be it mature, elite, or whatever tickles your fancy)

I'd honestly suggest the same sort of solution be applied to hivelords, because general opinion is that hivelords are a waste of a tier 2 slot.

It's only an idea, and as such, I'd like to see how you folk could apply your own thoughts to it or add onto it, which is why I've decided to post this idea thats plagued my thoughts for a while now.
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Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby misto » 02 Jul 2017, 13:16

praetorian seems to be class that lacks a clear goal, this resin spit thing is not a good gimmick and would probably be more at home on hivelord, and its other spits dont seem to be significantly different than what spitters can bring.

i just had an idea for a sort of acid gas mine that it could poop out to lay as a defensive trap, but even that would probably be more at home on the boiler
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Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Symbiosis » 03 Jul 2017, 05:51

Praetorians are in a great spot. They can hold the line, emit pheromones, use sticky resin which buys the hive time, and with a single spit they put Marines in pain crit if they don't have the means to treat it within a few minutes.
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