Praetorian Balance Discussion

Our lives for the Queen!
User avatar
northcote4
Registered user
Posts: 328
Joined: 31 Jul 2015, 10:18

Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby northcote4 » 23 Feb 2017, 12:52

My number one complaint with praetorians is, and always will be, the fact that they are slower than the queen .

While on their own this hasn't been a huge problem for me, as I alter my playstyle around this lack of mobility, the fact that the queen's guard unit is unable to keep up with the queen herself really grinds my gears. Really butters my porkchops. Really calcifies my bones. Y'dig?
The story of Edgardo and A Guy Named Squid. Good read. Greentext ahoy. - https://1d4chan.org/wiki/The_Ballad_of_Edgardo

The almighty Dr FrankenBaldie, creator of horrors such as the yautja-human hybrid, the yautja-space carp hybrid and the human-permaban hybrid. Know his name and know despair.

Runner up in a high-stakes game of poker.

Honourary Helldiver, courtesy of a drop-pod malfunction.

http://picosong.com/xdmj
Reuben Owen
Registered user
Posts: 115
Joined: 17 May 2015, 18:01

Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Reuben Owen » 23 Feb 2017, 13:01

northcote4 wrote:My number one complaint with praetorians is, and always will be, the fact that they are slower than the queen .

While on their own this hasn't been a huge problem for me, as I alter my playstyle around this lack of mobility, the fact that the queen's guard unit is unable to keep up with the queen herself really grinds my gears. Really butters my porkchops. Really calcifies my bones. Y'dig?

I dig. Frenzy don't work either since it just makes her faster too.
I play Xeno 99% of the time. All castes.
451
Registered user
Posts: 1
Joined: 27 Feb 2017, 14:27

Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby 451 » 27 Feb 2017, 14:39

Eenkogneeto wrote:Every acid splash from a prae is paincrit, Their acid is 2 to 3 times stronger than a spitters and at elite they both have the same speed.


This makes so much sense now. I've played the praetorian and the spitter both and I've found drastically different behavior from the marines. As an elite spitter I've hit a marine 4 or 5 times while kiting them and they just charge forward, whereas as a mature praetorian I've spit on a marine once and had them running away as fast as possible.

I don't have a whole lot of experience with ss13 in general; I don't use macros and such but my first time as a praetorian I matured then fended off about 15 marines by myself. I thought all spitters were like this but knowing that their acid spit is 2 to 4 times as strong as a equivalently upgraded t2 spitter that would explain why after hitting a few of them that hey retreated en masse.

Maybe a small speed or armor buff is my thought at this point.
User avatar
Crab_Spider
Registered user
Posts: 1549
Joined: 20 Aug 2016, 15:52
Byond ID: Krab_Spider

Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Crab_Spider » 27 Feb 2017, 16:45

451 wrote:This makes so much sense now. I've played the praetorian and the spitter both and I've found drastically different behavior from the marines. As an elite spitter I've hit a marine 4 or 5 times while kiting them and they just charge forward, whereas as a mature praetorian I've spit on a marine once and had them running away as fast as possible.

I don't have a whole lot of experience with ss13 in general; I don't use macros and such but my first time as a praetorian I matured then fended off about 15 marines by myself. I thought all spitters were like this but knowing that their acid spit is 2 to 4 times as strong as a equivalently upgraded t2 spitter that would explain why after hitting a few of them that hey retreated en masse.

Maybe a small speed or armor buff is my thought at this point.


It'd help a lot, but my fear is this'll encourage more ramboing from praetorians, they'd make great leaders with the same immunity to fire or explosions, but I fear we'll end up encouraging those same rush tactics.
You will never be as bad as the baldie who picked up a tactical shotgun while a hunter was pouncing on top of a CMO for 4 seconds, with his only response being to pace around before being decap'd by said hunter. You are not Brett Kimple, and you never will be. You are not the reason why I regular MP.

I am John "Buckshot" Rhodes, the King Crab of this Beach

Image
User avatar
northcote4
Registered user
Posts: 328
Joined: 31 Jul 2015, 10:18

Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby northcote4 » 27 Feb 2017, 19:45

Crab_Spider wrote:It'd help a lot, but my fear is this'll encourage more ramboing from praetorians, they'd make great leaders with the same immunity to fire or explosions, but I fear we'll end up encouraging those same rush tactics.


I don't quite follow you, Spider. What do you mean by 'the same immunity to fire or explosions'? Praetorians have neither.
The story of Edgardo and A Guy Named Squid. Good read. Greentext ahoy. - https://1d4chan.org/wiki/The_Ballad_of_Edgardo

The almighty Dr FrankenBaldie, creator of horrors such as the yautja-human hybrid, the yautja-space carp hybrid and the human-permaban hybrid. Know his name and know despair.

Runner up in a high-stakes game of poker.

Honourary Helldiver, courtesy of a drop-pod malfunction.

http://picosong.com/xdmj
User avatar
Crab_Spider
Registered user
Posts: 1549
Joined: 20 Aug 2016, 15:52
Byond ID: Krab_Spider

Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Crab_Spider » 27 Feb 2017, 19:52

northcote4 wrote:I don't quite follow you, Spider. What do you mean by 'the same immunity to fire or explosions'? Praetorians have neither.


The immunity crushers have to explosions and the immunity ravagers and queens have to fire.
You will never be as bad as the baldie who picked up a tactical shotgun while a hunter was pouncing on top of a CMO for 4 seconds, with his only response being to pace around before being decap'd by said hunter. You are not Brett Kimple, and you never will be. You are not the reason why I regular MP.

I am John "Buckshot" Rhodes, the King Crab of this Beach

Image
User avatar
TheMusician321
Registered user
Posts: 340
Joined: 25 Aug 2016, 01:39
Byond ID: TheMusician321

Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby TheMusician321 » 28 Feb 2017, 06:33

Crab_Spider wrote:The immunity crushers have to explosions and the immunity ravagers and queens have to fire.



uhh, praes have neither, they're walking acid-spitting machines of pure pain crit.
Image Image
Image

Ed 'Wafflecone' Martin bites the Mature Hunter (251)!

I play as Ed 'Waffles' Martin or his sister, Amaryllis 'Waffles' Martin.

No matter how bad you think you are, you will never be as bad as the 52 marines who all lost to a SINGLE crusher in a 1x1 corridor.
User avatar
Crab_Spider
Registered user
Posts: 1549
Joined: 20 Aug 2016, 15:52
Byond ID: Krab_Spider

Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Crab_Spider » 28 Feb 2017, 06:58

TheMusician321 wrote:uhh, praes have neither, they're walking acid-spitting machines of pure pain crit.


Exactly. It'd better to just give them either.
You will never be as bad as the baldie who picked up a tactical shotgun while a hunter was pouncing on top of a CMO for 4 seconds, with his only response being to pace around before being decap'd by said hunter. You are not Brett Kimple, and you never will be. You are not the reason why I regular MP.

I am John "Buckshot" Rhodes, the King Crab of this Beach

Image
User avatar
TheMaskedMan2
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 541
Joined: 15 Feb 2017, 12:37
Location: United States, Georgia
Byond ID: TheMaskedMan2

Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby TheMaskedMan2 » 28 Feb 2017, 12:23

Praes already seem kinda off, why are they glorified spitters? Aren't they supposed to be basically super warriors? Anyways when it comes to balance I really just think they need to be faster, or maybe stronger and more able to handle a melee fight. I don't know really. I personally believe at the least they need to be faster.
Certified RP Professional (According to myself) and Xenomorph lover.

Karla Mikhaylova
Image
User avatar
darkwahn
Registered user
Posts: 63
Joined: 02 Mar 2017, 02:30
Byond ID: darkwahn

Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby darkwahn » 02 Mar 2017, 14:09

I'd go with just making them a bit faster than the queen at first, and then see how they feel after that.
User avatar
Sailor Dave
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 158
Joined: 31 Dec 2014, 20:22

Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Sailor Dave » 03 Mar 2017, 20:10

Praetorians generally are super warriors, with a strong focus in melee and a larger, but shorter-ranged spit. A sort of combination ravager and spitter. Unfortunately, with the way evolution works right now, that wouldn't be very balanced. The praetorian should be strong, but with some downside, otherwise there would be no reason not to choose it.
User avatar
Redikal V
Registered user
Posts: 73
Joined: 05 Jan 2017, 04:07
Location: Milky Way > Sol System > Earth!
Byond ID: ReDikAl.ZiP

Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Redikal V » 03 Mar 2017, 21:25

Ancient praer - the walking machine gun, the keeper of the plasma and pheromones. He'd speed to add.
Simon "ATOM" Sanford: "NUKE IT"《`ATOM`ic Energy》

My favorite weapons:

#RPG-29 (SADAR). Att: Magnetic Harness.
#RPK (M39). Att: Quickfire + Burst + EB.
#A.T.O.M (M56B). Att: BC. 50\50: Burst Att.
#S.V.D (M42A and other sniper rifles). Att: Gyro Stabilisator.
#AK47 or M40 (just M41 rifle): Att: Sniper Set or Magnetic Harness + BC + Grip.


Tactic? Blitzkreeg and NUKE IT!
User avatar
MrJJJ
Registered user
Posts: 1853
Joined: 12 Jan 2015, 10:51
Location: Spider Lab

Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby MrJJJ » 06 Mar 2017, 21:35

Inb4 this becomes about as much of a meme as b18 boots
Clarkeh
Registered user
Posts: 19
Joined: 23 Aug 2016, 17:54

Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Clarkeh » 07 Mar 2017, 01:42

MrJJJ wrote:Inb4 this becomes about as much of a meme as b18 boots


Did they actually fix the B18 boots so they are now armoured? Back on topic as many have stated here, Prae just needs a speed boost so it's as fast as the queen or a bit faster.
Reuben Owen
Registered user
Posts: 115
Joined: 17 May 2015, 18:01

Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Reuben Owen » 07 Mar 2017, 08:34

Sailor Dave wrote:Praetorians generally are super warriors, with a strong focus in melee and a larger, but shorter-ranged spit. A sort of combination ravager and spitter. Unfortunately, with the way evolution works right now, that wouldn't be very balanced. The praetorian should be strong, but with some downside, otherwise there would be no reason not to choose it.

even if it was a 'combination of ravager and spitter' there would still be reason to choose all the other T3s:
-rav would still have charge and be immune to fire, which prae wouldn't, it'd still probably be faster and stronger with melee
-crusher still blows up mines and blocks like no 1s buisness, along with stomp
-and boiler still is the xeno sniper and has the unique gas

the thing about praes right now is most people (queens) see them as a fat spitter
so why even go to them when you can just go to be a upgraded spitter, then you can save your T3 spots for more 'unique' castes
I play Xeno 99% of the time. All castes.
User avatar
laserdogbad
Registered user
Posts: 37
Joined: 27 Dec 2016, 21:22
Byond ID: laserdog

Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby laserdogbad » 07 Mar 2017, 15:37

Sailor Dave wrote:Praetorians generally are super warriors, with a strong focus in melee and a larger, but shorter-ranged spit. A sort of combination ravager and spitter. Unfortunately, with the way evolution works right now, that wouldn't be very balanced. The praetorian should be strong, but with some downside, otherwise there would be no reason not to choose it.

Current Praetorns could be given a diffrent name, and this given a T4 Slot, along with predaliens and the queen
Reuben Owen
Registered user
Posts: 115
Joined: 17 May 2015, 18:01

Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Reuben Owen » 09 Mar 2017, 08:49

just going to put all the suggestions so far into 1 post to view them better, I'm literally just copypasting so

GREATLY improve their armor to increase their deflection rate, as well as increase their health slightly OR give their spit a 0% chance to miss

beefing up their armor a bit more to make them more tanky and able to hold their own, instead of feeling like short-ranged boilers

I think praes would greatly benefit from having another spit type on top of the ones spitters have or just buffed versions of the normal ones. Maybe an AoE slow?

Could also add a slow after the neurotoxin stun

Maybe if it had a weaker, shorter-range version of the queen's screech, it'd be more popular and also allow the queen stay out of combat at the same time.

Stronger pheromones, and more defense would be ideal.

Faster movespeed would be the simple solution, and an alternative option would be to make them additional utility.

praes just be like boilers where they get longrange and just use damaging spit

a roar like previously mentioned but it doesnt knock marines down rather freezes them in place

Hallucination spit

Plus I'd like to see maybe a 'blinding' spit (drops a marines sight to one tile for 5-10 seconds does no other damage, recharge delay) as maybe a secondary ability to help the lumbering thing escape and support attacks

Have the Praetorian and the Queen buff each other for being on the same screen

Praes recover full plasma even when not at full health

a slight buff to speed (so it's as quick as the Queen) and its armor

plant pheromone nodes

have more health, armor, and a speed boost so they're a little faster than the queen

a speed buff would defo be nice

speed buff def. needed

All the prae needs is a decent speed buff and not major overhaul. It's stupid its slower then the Queen that's for sure.

What about a stronger acid spit that covers the ground in acid in a 3x3 radius? Slower firing, of course.

they'd make great leaders with the same immunity to fire or explosions

combination ravager and spitter
I play Xeno 99% of the time. All castes.
User avatar
Liran343
Registered user
Posts: 133
Joined: 10 Sep 2016, 13:55
Byond ID: Liran343

Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Liran343 » 09 Mar 2017, 09:30

+1 for hallucination spit or pheromones nodes
User avatar
northcote4
Registered user
Posts: 328
Joined: 31 Jul 2015, 10:18

Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby northcote4 » 09 Mar 2017, 14:54

Reuben Owen wrote: -Snip-


Because I had nothing better to do with my time, here's a quick tally:

Buff Health: 2
Buff Armour/Melee: 5
Buff Movespeed: 6
Buff Current Spit: 3
New Ability: 9
(AoE spit type (2), Neurotoxin slow, Mini-Screech (2), Hallucination spit (2), Blinding spit)
Other: 5
(Pheromone Buff, Praetorian-Queen-Combo buff, Regenerate Plasma whilst injured, Pheromone Nodes (2), Flame or Explosive Immunity)
The story of Edgardo and A Guy Named Squid. Good read. Greentext ahoy. - https://1d4chan.org/wiki/The_Ballad_of_Edgardo

The almighty Dr FrankenBaldie, creator of horrors such as the yautja-human hybrid, the yautja-space carp hybrid and the human-permaban hybrid. Know his name and know despair.

Runner up in a high-stakes game of poker.

Honourary Helldiver, courtesy of a drop-pod malfunction.

http://picosong.com/xdmj
User avatar
Rocco Ward
Registered user
Posts: 115
Joined: 11 Apr 2016, 11:48

Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Rocco Ward » 09 Mar 2017, 18:41

I actually like the idea of regen plasma while it's injured. But to add another ability, Prae maybe should be able to spit weapons out of marine hands, or helmets off their head, or acid armor while being worn.... I dunno, something useful.

(edit - spit grenades? Functions like a flame grenade, but with acid)
----------------------------------------RETRIED COMMANDER----------------------------------------

ROUND STATS WHILE COMMANDER:
Marine Majors - 1
Alien Minors --- 0
Alien Majors --- 3

Win/Loss [25%|75%]

Image
User avatar
Bath Salts Addict
Registered user
Posts: 79
Joined: 21 Nov 2015, 13:14

Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Bath Salts Addict » 10 Mar 2017, 09:17

Each T3 has a bit of a niche to fill. Boilers provide long range suppression and force marines to retreat, providing cover and kill opportunities with their acid. Crushers are the vanguards who protects their fellows while dismantling Marine defenses. The Ravager leads hunts, devastates the front line and harasses would-be attackers through speed and sheer power. The Hivelord builds. He just builds.

No one seems to be quite sure what niche the Praetorian fills. They're the Queen's guard, right? Do something unique and capitalize on that. Give both them and the Queen buffs such as increases damage or health regen for being on the same screen. Buff ther speed a bit so they can keep up with a Queen on the run.
User avatar
Abyss-UT
Registered user
Posts: 7
Joined: 27 Feb 2017, 15:43
Byond ID: Abyss-UT

Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Abyss-UT » 12 Mar 2017, 10:10

I play Praetorian a lot. The thing I would like about it is maybe a roar like the queen but with less stun, and like everyone said to be faster than the queen.
I often heard that "Praetorian is the King" not talking about how many people think you're the Queen when Praetorian, because sprite is similar apart fromn the crest
and the back spines. All in all if Prae would have something cool you obtain when you evolve. Like a special ability just for him, not too powerful but useful to take time so
Queen can escape, that's for me to think the roar stun would be cool, or maybe dig tunnels I don't know. But the Praetorian is called also a "Waste of T3 slots"
This is just the most common blank text that I could ever imagine. But if I keep typing will it still be a blank text? Maybe it will
become a normal message or maybe a text wall. Depends if I keep typing or not. . . .maybe I should stop now, yeah.
User avatar
Crab_Spider
Registered user
Posts: 1549
Joined: 20 Aug 2016, 15:52
Byond ID: Krab_Spider

Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Crab_Spider » 22 Mar 2017, 08:14

So I've gotten jobbanned from xeno, and lately, I've had enough time to do some experimenting, what I found was a bit shocking: Praes are actually damn powerful. I got spit by a Mature Prae, and the moment it registered, I was thrusted into critical, and 30 seconds later, as I walked to the tablefort, I went into paincrit. Yes, I was wearing armour, no I was not on painkillers, just one spit, and I'm at critical.

Taking a look into it, the best they need is simply a "screech" that removes the ability to spit, and grants them the speed of a Hunter, complete immunity to fire would help too.
You will never be as bad as the baldie who picked up a tactical shotgun while a hunter was pouncing on top of a CMO for 4 seconds, with his only response being to pace around before being decap'd by said hunter. You are not Brett Kimple, and you never will be. You are not the reason why I regular MP.

I am John "Buckshot" Rhodes, the King Crab of this Beach

Image
User avatar
Swagile
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 952
Joined: 19 Jan 2017, 11:56
Byond ID: Swagile

Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Swagile » 22 Mar 2017, 11:58

Prae's critical means shit all when you think about it.

Why? All you need is one tram pill and your fine getting hit, and it gives no lasting damage because burn damage doesn't give third degree burns, etc. that requires a doctor to heal. While T3's such as Ravagers and Crushers can cause fractures and broken bones, which will last the entire game unless a doctor fixes you.

So in the long term, against competent combat medics, a prae is a waste of a T3 slot.
Image
User avatar
Crab_Spider
Registered user
Posts: 1549
Joined: 20 Aug 2016, 15:52
Byond ID: Krab_Spider

Re: Praetorian Balance Discussion

Postby Crab_Spider » 22 Mar 2017, 12:46

Swagile wrote:Prae's critical means shit all when you think about it.

Why? All you need is one tram pill and your fine getting hit, and it gives no lasting damage because burn damage doesn't give third degree burns, etc. that requires a doctor to heal. While T3's such as Ravagers and Crushers can cause fractures and broken bones, which will last the entire game unless a doctor fixes you.

So in the long term, against competent combat medics, a prae is a waste of a T3 slot.


So because there are medics around, the splatter is worthless? There are weeds all over the table fort, we don't need a drone. All the Marines are infected, we don't need a carrier. There are no mines, we don't need a crusher. There are medics around so what's the point of having a spitter? We don't need a Queen, all the xenos are Ancient and there's no point of having eggs.

Why not also mention how burn damage (or damage in general) slows you down, or how Praes have PHEROMONES (yknow, the stuff that increase specific stats for every alien in view)? Or how both Crushers and Ravagers are glass cannons? Why not also bring up the fact that CHEMS WEAR OFF? Oh hey, what about that decreasing cooldown as they mature? Yknow, something that is very useful for slowing down a group of Marines? But I digress. Who needs a Praetorian, when we have Boilers? The most fucking useless xenomorph there is. Not only do they have spend some time holding still, they'll also give off life, compromising the very notion of stealth. Or hey, they'll also be so slow, let alone easy pickings, their own DEFENSIVE ABILITY will fuck them over. You know what irks me about your statement on a competitent medic? The fact you fail to take into account that SUPPLIES RUN OUT, and fail to grasp the fact that medics are as killable as a standard.
You will never be as bad as the baldie who picked up a tactical shotgun while a hunter was pouncing on top of a CMO for 4 seconds, with his only response being to pace around before being decap'd by said hunter. You are not Brett Kimple, and you never will be. You are not the reason why I regular MP.

I am John "Buckshot" Rhodes, the King Crab of this Beach

Image

Return to “The Hive”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Zilenan91 and 2 guests