PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

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PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Toroic » 30 Aug 2016, 11:42

With the jelly change and the addition of the reasearch update, several things need to change in xeno strategy.

For one, ramboing now hurts the hive beyond the loss of a larva and the potential loss of an upgraded xeno, you're giving marines more raw materials. This is especially important for queens, who screw over the hive even harder when they die foolishly.

Queens need to stay out of combat as much as possible. 3 queen deaths in a round set older xenos back 900 evolution progress minimum by my math.

Going hand in hand with that, stop fortifying and trying to hold the open area south of the river and fighting in the giver. It is a terrible strategy due to encouraging rushes, being incredibly inefficient use of plasma, and because it typically leads to the death of half the hive plus the queen.

More than ever before it's important that xenos don't go off and die, and unless xeno players make and enforce a shift in what xenos do every round, we're first going to have a lot of marine wins, followed by a lot less people playing xeno.
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Renomaki » 30 Aug 2016, 13:16

Xenos are going to have to start using their brains a whole lot more now, which I like.

Xenos were always the sort that seemed to be made to stalk marines from the darkness, quietly observing and intimidating prey without blowing their cover. I always found it silly how very often, you have xenos who, on first contact, IMMEDIATELY aggro on marines and attempt to hug them in plain view, getting way too cocky and causing the marines to shoot all future xenos on sight.

If the xenos want to grow strong and survive, they are going to have to be willing to hold back more and make use of the shadows a whole lot more than before, only going full frontal if the hive is under attack, which it really shouldn't if the xenos do a good job not carelessly ramboing and attempting to infect a single marine within a group of trigger happy hosts.
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Reuben Owen » 30 Aug 2016, 17:15

tbh when xenos lose it makes me wanna git gud more, playing losing xenos is fun

that being said xenos should use their brains anyway, toggling hide as a runner reduces your sprite to a few mere pixels if you're underneath something
but even so you can't deny they just DIE quick, and not every runner wants to chill in the hive until ancient, or looks under every single thing every round for fear of mines

and yeah I've given up on saying LET THEM COME ACROSS THE RIVER
it doesn't work ; _;
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Crab_Spider » 18 Oct 2016, 22:48

Reuben Owen wrote:and yeah I've given up on saying LET THEM COME ACROSS THE RIVER
it doesn't work ; _;


I hate when no one listens to that. The caves are very narrow, and a narrow space is the best means to capture or kill. Yes, you have better success at dodging in an open area. Yes, Marines will be on their toes. Yes, you will put the hive in danger. But here's the thing: HIVELORDS CAN BUILD TUNNELS TO A MUCH SAFER LOCATION. BOILERS CAN LAUNCH PAST YOU. CRUSHERS HAVE AN EASIER TIME RAMMING THROUGH. When you make it obvious you're attacking Marines, they have a shitton of reasons to kill you! Stop being stupid, take as much time as needed and infect them!
You will never be as bad as the baldie who picked up a tactical shotgun while a hunter was pouncing on top of a CMO for 4 seconds, with his only response being to pace around before being decap'd by said hunter. You are not Brett Kimple, and you never will be. You are not the reason why I regular MP.

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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Simo94 » 21 Oct 2016, 14:28

rambo is for marines, for xeno side we call it godzilla
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Skane10634 » 12 Dec 2016, 22:21

Yeah, it needs to stop, it hinders RP so much
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Heckenshutze » 13 Dec 2016, 10:09

River siege screws both parties in an equal manner.
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby NoahKirchner » 13 Dec 2016, 10:27

Toroic wrote:With the jelly change and the addition of the reasearch update, several things need to change in xeno strategy.

For one, ramboing now hurts the hive beyond the loss of a larva and the potential loss of an upgraded xeno, you're giving marines more raw materials. This is especially important for queens, who screw over the hive even harder when they die foolishly.

Queens need to stay out of combat as much as possible. 3 queen deaths in a round set older xenos back 900 evolution progress minimum by my math.

Going hand in hand with that, stop fortifying and trying to hold the open area south of the river and fighting in the giver. It is a terrible strategy due to encouraging rushes, being incredibly inefficient use of plasma, and because it typically leads to the death of half the hive plus the queen.

More than ever before it's important that xenos don't go off and die, and unless xeno players make and enforce a shift in what xenos do every round, we're first going to have a lot of marine wins, followed by a lot less people playing xeno.

YES PLEASE. If you need to go across the river, do it in one swift movement and take HYDRO. If they repel your attack, fall back NORTH of the river. The river is the weakest position for any team to be in at any time, and is especially weak whenever being forced to fight in it. If you fall back after you've put some space inbetween you and your enemy, you're good. Furthermore, ATTACK THE MARINES JUST AFTER THEY GET OUT OF THE RIVER. That is the end of my rant. Thank you and goodnight California.
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Tranquill » 13 Dec 2016, 16:46

I don't normally play Xeno much but, I do have to agree. When playing as a Marine, I do see, a lot of the times, a few Xenos that like to hover too close to the Marines, resulting in their death. Sometimes, the queen does this too, which is very odd.
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Renomaki » 14 Dec 2016, 09:29

As of this post, old habits do indeed die hard, with xenos still being the trigger happy aliens we know and... Know.

Although nowadays, the whole "giving them resources" thing is horribly out of date now, what with how it turns out how useless most of the alien items are.

What a disappointment, really... What could have been an incentive to avoid dying at the hands of marines is now moot when you realize no one cares about alien items anymore.
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Crab_Spider » 14 Dec 2016, 11:04

Renomaki wrote:As of this post, old habits do indeed die hard, with xenos still being the trigger happy aliens we know and... Know.

Although nowadays, the whole "giving them resources" thing is horribly out of date now, what with how it turns out how useless most of the alien items are.

What a disappointment, really... What could have been an incentive to avoid dying at the hands of marines is now moot when you realize no one cares about alien items anymore.


The items are actually pretty useful,when I used the chitin armour, I was immune to corrosive acid to my chest. The antiacid also prevented my guns from being melted when im nested
You will never be as bad as the baldie who picked up a tactical shotgun while a hunter was pouncing on top of a CMO for 4 seconds, with his only response being to pace around before being decap'd by said hunter. You are not Brett Kimple, and you never will be. You are not the reason why I regular MP.

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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Arachnidnexus » 14 Dec 2016, 14:13

I dunno, I kind of like the river siege as it is right now. It's a lot more action earlier in the round and it also allows both sides the opportunity to pull off a coordinated and potentially devastating flank attack. Obviously the cave chokepoints are a lot more advantageous for the Crusher/Boiler/Queen screech combo but a fortified river assault gets all the castes involved. And honestly winning the river siege as the xeno side feels pretty awesome.

I do agree that xenos should play a bit safer during the river battle in general. Been a lot of cases where Boilers get caught advancing too far out with T1/T2 escorts or slower aliens pushing too far into river without an escape plan. If mines get heavily involved it's definitely worth it to have marines push up further to nullify that static defense advantage.
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Toroic » 14 Dec 2016, 16:31

Arachnidnexus wrote:I dunno, I kind of like the river siege as it is right now. It's a lot more action earlier in the round and it also allows both sides the opportunity to pull off a coordinated and potentially devastating flank attack. Obviously the cave chokepoints are a lot more advantageous for the Crusher/Boiler/Queen screech combo but a fortified river assault gets all the castes involved. And honestly winning the river siege as the xeno side feels pretty awesome.

I do agree that xenos should play a bit safer during the river battle in general. Been a lot of cases where Boilers get caught advancing too far out with T1/T2 escorts or slower aliens pushing too far into river without an escape plan. If mines get heavily involved it's definitely worth it to have marines push up further to nullify that static defense advantage.


If we balance around a weak but common strategy then xenos who don't use it will be unbeatable.
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Arachnidnexus » 16 Dec 2016, 13:01

Toroic wrote:If we balance around a weak but common strategy then xenos who don't use it will be unbeatable.


True, but from what I've seen if marines do win the river siege xenos can hold the cave entrances with boiler/crusher/queen combo and make comebacks anyway. Unless xenos lose too many holding onto table fort area for no reason. But that's more of an issue with being too stubborn and not cutting losses. And certain xeno combos are already incredibly hard to beat in chokepoint areas but if those xenos gets nerfed they would be awful in the open.
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Toroic » 01 Jan 2017, 02:25

I'm bumping this thread, because it's a constant issue.

Still a terrible strategy, still kills tons of xenos, still should not be used. Still used all the time.

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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Damarik » 01 Jan 2017, 15:33

Toroic wrote:I'm bumping this thread, because it's a constant issue.


Word of God, Amen. Lost 5 Xenos in under a minute last night because of this bs.
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Togopal » 02 Jan 2017, 02:20

I main Queen when I'm an alien, and I always establish a base north of the beach ASAP.

The way I see it, the Hive should be used as a last stand scenario, which almost never happens as long as xenos are at least moderately aggressive. Xenos suffer some losses, but the Queen can not individually control all of their xenomorphs' actions, and death is always unavoidable. On the bright side, those who do die gain a chance of 'respawn' by the tons of unoccupied larva we have from monkies and marines who choose not to play as xenomorphs. Sometimes you need to lose to gain.
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Toroic » 02 Jan 2017, 03:24

Togopal wrote:I main Queen when I'm an alien, and I always establish a base north of the beach ASAP.

The way I see it, the Hive should be used as a last stand scenario, which almost never happens as long as xenos are at least moderately aggressive. Xenos suffer some losses, but the Queen can not individually control all of their xenomorphs' actions, and death is always unavoidable. On the bright side, those who do die gain a chance of 'respawn' by the tons of unoccupied larva we have from monkies and marines who choose not to play as xenomorphs. Sometimes you need to lose to gain.


Then you are part of the problem.

Tactically it is a complete failure to choose to fight in an area that is weak for you, and xenos who don't die pointlessly on the beach evolve and upgrade and become exponentially stronger than they were before.

If your terrible beach defense is generally successful, then using the hive effectively would be more successful with less casualties, and instead of using the larva to replenish unnecessary losses, you can use them to swell your ranks.

You thinking death is unavoidable is wrong. Some xenos are going to die, but which xenos die varies massive based on the terrain that they fight on.

Out in the open, it's very easy to pick off a boiler with an AP rocket, or to stun and rush a queen. In a heavily fortified nest, this is much more difficult and when marines try to dig in they often make fatal mistakes or create additional chokepoints they can be dunked in.

The other reason building north of the river is a bad idea is that the round starts with marines not knowing where xenos are. If you build a giant resin wall along the river, you will be attacked as early as possible because you have completely abandoned subtlety.


You're basically picking an inferior strategy that would be even worse if there were not OOC restrictions on marines rushing north.
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Togopal » 02 Jan 2017, 03:41

Toroic wrote:Then you are part of the problem.

Tactically it is a complete failure to choose to fight in an area that is weak for you, and xenos who don't die pointlessly on the beach evolve and upgrade and become exponentially stronger than they were before.


All of the times I have opted for beach brigade, aggressive tactics and advancement have resulted in the marines getting overwhelmed and having enough xenos to spare for the Sulaco engagement. I believe it just depends on what the Queen does, and their leadership/ orders.


Toroic wrote:If your terrible beach defense is generally successful, then using the hive effectively would be more successful with less casualties, and instead of using the larva to replenish unnecessary losses, you can use them to swell your ranks.


The thing is, from what I've seen, turtling in the Hives is going to result in more deaths if the marines play aggressive. When you are on the offense, all 4 squads are usually scattered defending their own sectors as the Commander orders. When you're in the Hive, all 4 squads are going to realize you're not doing much and start engaging at once, and that's not going to be pretty, especially when they have an abundance of explosives.

Toroic wrote:You thinking death is unavoidable is wrong.


Toroic wrote: Some xenos are going to die


Contradictory. Losses are mainly based on the experience of the person playing the xenomorph.

Toroic wrote: Out in the open, it's very easy to pick off a boiler with an AP rocket, or to stun and rush a queen. In a heavily fortified nest, this is much more difficult and when marines try to dig in they often make fatal mistakes or create additional chokepoints they can be dunked in.


When you burrow yourself inside a hive, Marines are going to stay at a distance and shoot to destroy the hull. They excel in ranged combat, that's why you need to bring the fight to them. You could argue that marines are going to spend all their ammo on the walls before they can get inside, but that is not likely.

Toroic wrote: The other reason building north of the river is a bad idea is that the round starts with marines not knowing where xenos are. If you build a giant resin wall along the river, you will be attacked as early as possible because you have completely abandoned subtlety.


If they're close enough to see the other side of the beach, they're definitely going North to notice anyway.
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby RenGusta » 02 Jan 2017, 05:04

If they're close enough to see the other side of the beach, they're definitely going North to notice anyway.



Or they're a sniper/use binocs and spot it from Hydro.
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Carmac » 02 Jan 2017, 05:06

Togopal wrote:I main Queen when I'm an alien, and I always establish a base north of the beach ASAP.

The way I see it, the Hive should be used as a last stand scenario, which almost never happens as long as xenos are at least moderately aggressive. Xenos suffer some losses, but the Queen can not individually control all of their xenomorphs' actions, and death is always unavoidable. On the bright side, those who do die gain a chance of 'respawn' by the tons of unoccupied larva we have from monkies and marines who choose not to play as xenomorphs. Sometimes you need to lose to gain.


Alright so you're already inciting metarushes as Toroic points out in his argument, whether you'd like to believe it or not. Second of all, you do not gain anything from losing xenos to a pointless battle in a shit battleground, the beach panders to marines in that it is HUGE and OPEN, you can counter that with defenses, that are easily destroyable by the metric SHIT TON of ammunition 50% of the marine core carries on their person, worst case scenario? You get hit by 4 OB's that can be widespread and still effective, because if your xeno are all grouped up in one spot, you're doing it wrong. Not to mention that sure you have a lot of respawns due to larva, but if you waste them all on your shitty beach fights then that's just made life INCREDIBLY hard for you, and if you could please explain to me how losing an ancient hunter to a SADAR and gaining a young larva in its place 5 MINUTES LATER if you're talking about xeno players using the respawn, then that'd be great.
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Derpislav » 02 Jan 2017, 07:40

Togopal wrote:All of the times I have opted for beach brigade, aggressive tactics and advancement have resulted in the marines getting overwhelmed and having enough xenos to spare for the Sulaco engagement. I believe it just depends on what the Queen does, and their leadership/ orders.
If you attack marines in their base, they will retreat with 70% of them still alive. You will generally get dunked on Campaco. If you let them get down to only few combat-capable marines attacking you, then pick them off as they retreat, there will be no one left to grenade you on Sulaco.

EDIT: Beach forts serve one purpose you can't argue with.
They make marines waste ammo.
They will be down to two mags each if they ever reach the caves.
Getting resupplied by RO happens basically never.
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Damarik » 02 Jan 2017, 12:29

Derpislav wrote:If you attack marines in their base, they will retreat with 70% of them still alive. You will generally get dunked on Campaco. If you let them get down to only few combat-capable marines attacking you, then pick them off as they retreat, there will be no one left to grenade you on Sulaco.

EDIT: Beach forts serve one purpose you can't argue with.
They make marines waste ammo.
They will be down to two mags each if they ever reach the caves.
Getting resupplied by RO happens basically never.



Marines can waste ammo in the caves too, and there's more places for Xenos to be better protected in there without the risk of getting OB'd to death. There is no valid argument here.
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Togopal » 02 Jan 2017, 14:42

Carmac wrote:Alright so you're already inciting metarushes as Toroic points out in his argument, whether you'd like to believe it or not.

Fine by me. Metarushes always result poorly for marines because the people who are more likely to do that are less coordinated with their team and are basically free captures.


Carmac wrote:Second of all, you do not gain anything from losing xenos to a pointless battle in a shit battleground, the beach panders to marines in that it is HUGE and OPEN


The beach is too huge and open even for the marines. The only way you can get a good look inside is by entering through the top of the beach and when thats covered by walls, sticky resin, boilers, and a competent builder caste ready to replace it, you're going to have a hard time coordinating an attack through the offensive castes also harassing you.

Carmac wrote:you can counter that with defenses, that are easily destroyable by the metric SHIT TON of ammunition 50% of the marine core carries on their person, worst case scenario? You get hit by 4 OB's that can be widespread and still effective, because if your xeno are all grouped up in one spot, you're doing it wrong.


I dont see what stops all of this from happening in the hive, aside from having nowhere to flee if the marines breach.OBs are not very effective at taking out xenos in wide open areas like the beach and thats a perk of it. Also, destroyed walls are harder in the hive due to its larger size and cramped areas you can easily get shot in.

Carmac wrote: Not to mention that sure you have a lot of respawns due to larva, but if you waste them all on your shitty beach fights then that's just made life INCREDIBLY hard for you,


When I am queen, I prioritize laying eggs for capturing marines, so when the beach fight is over and they retreat, I still have more larva popping.

Carmac wrote: and if you could please explain to me how losing an ancient hunter to a SADAR and gaining a young larva in its place 5 MINUTES LATER if you're talking about xeno players using the respawn, then that'd be great.


If the Ancient Hunter dies to a SADAR during engagement, then that would be the result of poor teamwork and communication on the offensive xenomorph side and was probably bound to happen regardless of the setting of the fight. If the larva evolves into Hunter and stays useful to the fight without risking their lives, they can easily replace the Ancient Hunter.
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Togopal » 02 Jan 2017, 14:46

Derpislav wrote:If you attack marines in their base, they will retreat with 70% of them still alive. You will generally get dunked on Campaco. If you let them get down to only few combat-capable marines attacking you, then pick them off as they retreat, there will be no one left to grenade you on Sulaco.

EDIT: Beach forts serve one purpose you can't argue with.
They make marines waste ammo.
They will be down to two mags each if they ever reach the caves.
Getting resupplied by RO happens basically never.


Very true unfortunately. Marines who are getting assaulted will tend to turtle. But if theres triple of our numbers on the Sulaco, then I stay on the planet and wait for the admins to give their say. Sometines theyll try to organize another attack and the xenos will gain more numbers. And I agree with the second part

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