PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

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Togopal
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Togopal » 02 Jan 2017, 14:49

Damarik wrote:Marines can waste ammo in the caves too, and there's more places for Xenos to be better protected in there without the risk of getting OB'd to death. There is no valid argument here.


They're closer to the fight when they're in the caves, though. And even if they are unable to OB ( not sure if the cave roof denial is still in effect) they are still in closer proximity and are capable of backing the xenos into a corner
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Togopal » 02 Jan 2017, 14:52

RenGusta wrote:Or they're a sniper/use binocs and spot it from Hydro.


Good point. They're close enough to the beach at that point anyway, you know the inevitable order will be "lets go check it out"
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Liran343 » 02 Jan 2017, 17:37

I never understood why people think that the caves are a better defense than the river hive. As Togopal said, the main hive is supposed to be a last stand scenario for the xenos for a couple of reasons: Firstly, let's say you let the marines cross the river and are fighting them in the entrance, because all of the xenos are cramped in those caves, other squads move further up and make a "giant death ball of destruction"(it means that they concentrated all of their power/marines to one area). It's terrible for the xenos because they can't handle all of the 4 squads at once in one area. The main hive should be used as a fall back point because in that point of the game marines are somewhat disorganized and worn out due to the fact they've been fighting xenos for more then half an hour... marines shouldn't even be at the main hive doorstep in the first place if the hive is competent but I digress. Additionally, people tend to forget that marines can easily order mining equipment and bust through the south. Now you could argue that if the hive has a competent hivelord that knows where to dig his tunnels the xenos could circumvent the marines or even retreat further into the caves (the west cave system)... but not every round you get a hivelord that knows what she's doing (if a drone even bothers to evolve into one)... and marines could easily use C4 to blow any tunnels they find.

In conclusion, gg no reee for cave bunkering.
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Toroic » 02 Jan 2017, 19:27

Liran343 wrote:I never understood why people think that the caves are a better defense than the river hive. As Togopal said, the main hive is supposed to be a last stand scenario for the xenos for a couple of reasons: Firstly, let's say you let the marines cross the river and are fighting them in the entrance, because all of the xenos are cramped in those caves, other squads move further up and make a "giant death ball of destruction"(it means that they concentrated all of their power/marines to one area). It's terrible for the xenos because they can't handle all of the 4 squads at once in one area. The main hive should be used as a fall back point because in that point of the game marines are somewhat disorganized and worn out due to the fact they've been fighting xenos for more then half an hour... marines shouldn't even be at the main hive doorstep in the first place if the hive is competent but I digress. Additionally, people tend to forget that marines can easily order mining equipment and bust through the south. Now you could argue that if the hive has a competent hivelord that knows where to dig his tunnels the xenos could circumvent the marines or even retreat further into the caves (the west cave system)... but not every round you get a hivelord that knows what she's doing (if a drone even bothers to evolve into one)... and marines could easily use C4 to blow any tunnels they find.

In conclusion, gg no reee for cave bunkering.



The reason people say the caves are better because they objectively are.

That "death ball" you're talking about is actually only a weakness out in the open, because marines impede each other's line of fire, and crushers and queens easily deal with massed marines in confined places.
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Liran343 » 03 Jan 2017, 16:35

Toroic wrote:The reason people say the caves are better because they objectively are.

That "death ball" you're talking about is actually only a weakness out in the open, because marines impede each other's line of fire, and crushers and queens easily deal with massed marines in confined places.


You really underestimate marines... I see where this is coming from and I partially agree with the line of fire issue. But FF isn't really a problem unless it's you're getting shot with AP burstfire. Not to mention that two turrets will easily deal with any xeno trying to harm or drag off the downed marines. Also, don't forget about mines marines can place at the lower entrance basically preventing the xenos from flanking... and if they send a crusher to minesweep they're risking their main entrance being overuned by marines.
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Toroic » 03 Jan 2017, 18:13

Liran343 wrote:You really underestimate marines... I see where this is coming from and I partially agree with the line of fire issue. But FF isn't really a problem unless it's you're getting shot with AP burstfire. Not to mention that two turrets will easily deal with any xeno trying to harm or drag off the downed marines. Also, don't forget about mines marines can place at the lower entrance basically preventing the xenos from flanking... and if they send a crusher to minesweep they're risking their main entrance being overuned by marines.


I'm not underestimating marines, I'm coming from a place of experience having played a hundred rounds or more, and having successfully defended within the caves dozens of times.

When xenos fight outside, if marines are competent xenos suffer heavy losses. If xenos defend from the caves, I have rarely if ever seen them lose.

So when I say xenos always are wasting lives fighting outside north of the river, it's because I've played dozens of games each way and seen the difference with my own eyes.
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Lokiki_01 » 04 Jan 2017, 04:39

Yes, it's really hard to push caves, even with big force. Marines can't fight in 2 tile corridor more or less effective, but you can use temple here, to gain new access rout to cave itself. Flanking from central caves very risky, but as I see, without any mistakes from xenos, it's the only way to make it inside. And also pickaxes, which are getting banned, cause Free don't like them
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Carmac » 04 Jan 2017, 05:34

>Be marine
>Be in caves
>Only room to push up one at a time
>Have vietnam flashbacks to old Ice Colony, so many small tunnels, so many crushers and boilers
>Fall over
>Try not to cry
>Cry
>Get run over by a crusher
>Everyone behind you falls over each other to run away
>You're all dead
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Reuben Owen » 04 Jan 2017, 08:43

Theres only a few ways they can beat caves.
One is for them to dig through with pickaxes. However this takes awhile and splits up your forces between rocks.
The other is to lay down mines in the small areas and pray they don't have a Crusher. But they usually do.
Lastly, they can flank around from the north central area and go either east or west, depending on the hive location. Problem with this 1 is they usually don't have enough ground forces unless its high pop to split up between the two areas, but that all being said it usually works the best.
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Togopal » 04 Jan 2017, 22:53

You guys play however you want when you're queen. I am perfectly comfortable with following the orders of any Queen, as long as they're not suicidal. However, when I am Queen, I will be the one who is at the Beach.
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Toroic » 05 Jan 2017, 01:35

Togopal wrote:You guys play however you want when you're queen. I am perfectly comfortable with following the orders of any Queen, as long as they're not suicidal. However, when I am Queen, I will be the one who is at the Beach.


We shouldn't deliberately aim for mediocre tactics.
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Togopal » 05 Jan 2017, 02:40

Toroic, can you please suggest a better alternative? I will try it next time I am queen and see how it goes, coming back with results.
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Toroic » 05 Jan 2017, 03:13

Togopal wrote:Toroic, can you please suggest a better alternative? I will try it next time I am queen and see how it goes, coming back with results.


Lots of sticky resin in the east-west tunnel, funneling the marines in an area they can't OB you. Ideal for a boiler/crusher combo, with smaller xenos rushing in after the stomp/acid glob.

If the marines are competent, both sides take heavy losses by the river. IN a narrow tunnel they can't OB, they can't fire more than two at a time, and they generally are in an ideal position for boiler harass/crusher charging.
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Lokiki_01 » 05 Jan 2017, 07:06

Toroic wrote:Lots of sticky resin in the east-west tunnel, funneling the marines in an area they can't OB you. Ideal for a boiler/crusher combo, with smaller xenos rushing in after the stomp/acid glob.

If the marines are competent, both sides take heavy losses by the river. IN a narrow tunnel they can't OB, they can't fire more than two at a time, and they generally are in an ideal position for boiler harass/crusher charging.


Anyway, enough resin structures from beach to caves will do a good job in retreating kills and harassment of medics/engineers by flanking T2
Sometimes after bad push marines retreat to crashed shuttle, there can be 6-8 of them, injured or not. It's perfect time to just swipe all forces with flank from some remaining walls.

If you have good hivelord or drone+spitter combo - they can just start building good defences BUT from caves, not from beach. And some nests in barrens(around 6-8) would make a good deal for hunting castes.
If xenos would give up whole barrens - that's really bad, marines should lose their momentum there, lose some men, spend some metal, move turrets, lose some medics with corpses on the way to LZ etc
I mean, you don't want to see 20-30 marines outside the cave with turrets and barricades, having OB ready if you attack, and supplies coming in + flanking forces
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Re: PSA: Stop ramboing and trying to fight north of the river

Postby Damarik » 06 Jan 2017, 13:20

The ideal scenario in my head runs like this:

Xenos stick to caves, picking off a lone marine here or there. By the time the Marines reach the caves, they still have no clue as to what's going on (IC) because drones wern't caught weeding the barrens, or Ravagers/Hunters weren't out wrecking them in mass groups, save that ~something~ is killing them. When they get there, they see a resdoor, maybe two in the entrance. Now they get interested for serious. Breaking down the door reveals a tunnel of sticky-res and weeds...but from the far end, the Boiler cues in on them, waiting until they breach into the tunnel itself, maybe 7/8 tiles. When they do, Boiler lobs a glob behind them, sealing at least a few marines in.

Crusher comes charging down the tunnel for a stomp, and Carrier/T1/T2 follows behind for easy infect of downed, trapped (and at this point, FF'd) marines.

The main force STILL never sees what's going on, because Boiler has negated their vision into the tunnel with his neurotox cloud, and thus are forced to remain IC Clueless. The only clues they have (if done right) is that something BIG and LOUD (Crusher Roar during the Charge) lives in the caves...and it's probably best not to fuck with it...because for all they know (again, IC)...whatever the fuck it was can shoot toxic clouds, and is strong enough to take out 7-8 Marines by itself in under a few seconds (because they never see Boiler in the far back, with his long-range sight).

At this point, marines outside the caves are shitting themselves because:
A- They have no IC idea what the fuck just happened
B- They were forced by cloud to leave marines trapped in the caves
C- By the time the cloud clears, all of their fallen marines are gone without a trace

This can be done from either side of the NE nest, given the right circumstances. The biggest draw to doing it in the West side is that Marines are already so far into the caves that if you've played your Hive right, you'll have Xenos coming in behind them from the Central Caves as well, cutting off any chance of retreat, and Mass-Infecting an entire Squad/Two Squads with similar tactics. That is a HUGELY demoralizing blow. Losing half of their expeditionary force in one fell-swoop without so much as a word of why? Marines would be fucked for the rest of the round.

No risk of OB. Almost no risk of Casualties (if your Ayys are competent) because weed/wall backup and nearby T3/4 support, and a shitton of Round-start eggs at your disposal for immediate infection.
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