Buckshot vs Slug: The final debate.

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Re: Buckshot vs Slug: The final debate.

Post by Boltersam » 11 Dec 2016, 12:54

Slugs are better against other humans. Buckshot all the way for everything else.
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Re: Buckshot vs Slug: The final debate.

Post by Heckenshutze » 12 Dec 2016, 18:08

Been using buckshots for a few days and they conviced me, from point blank range they're absolute havoc. So for now on, I'm a buckshot guy.

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Re: Buckshot vs Slug: The final debate.

Post by Marcus Jackson » 12 Dec 2016, 20:07

I'm a shotgun guy, always will be. So when this debate inevitably comes up from somebody grabbing a shotty in the line, I roll my eyes a little because of how dumb the overall argument is. When the slug lets loose at a certain range, I've seen fully capable and healthy T2's and T3's panic notably. They are used to bum-rushing through standard rounds like rolled up tissue, and when they suddenly start feeling the hurt they wig-out and try to hide behind resin walls, or even retreat back through the tunnels in more extreme cases.

On the flip-side, buck will shred the piss out of any lower-Xeno that get's too confident like a cheesegrater. They hear buck go off and suddenly they think "Oh, this baldie is gonna FF so hard when I pounce.", and suddenly they get shredded because the two dudes that went scouting had buck on them. The Xenos are over confidant around buck because of FF being a bigger issue, but they don't realise that buckshot hurts like hell, and even if they crit their own, they probably got a Xeno or two critted in the crossfire. If we had an entire squad use only shottys, and divided the slugs and buck evenly they would decimate any CQC situation. No contest.

Both are underestimated so much because the people that usually take shotguns with either ammo aren't using them correctly, and the people that complain about either type never used it right and then got hugged or diced up.

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Re: Buckshot vs Slug: The final debate.

Post by Edgelord » 15 Dec 2016, 23:10

I've shilled for the shotgun since forever, even back on the Nostromo when it couldn't even fit on the suit slot.

When they released buckshot I almost had a heart attack. In any game I play I always use the buckshot because there's no real reason to use the slug, you might as well be using a rifle. Now CM is different because it's not real life, but the concept holds true. It FEELS like a shotgun if you have that great spread.

Buckshot is not for everyone, you need to be patient and have trigger discipline. You also need to be vocal, stepping up to be the pointman when the need arises. A good buckshot user knows to boot aliens off marines before shooting them so as not to hurt them as well. It's a very specific playstyle, but I think it trumps using a more powerful and slow version of the assault rifle.
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Re: Buckshot vs Slug: The final debate.

Post by Gwynblade » 05 Jan 2017, 11:35

I think the best option is to have both slugs and buckshot in your backpack. Slugs are great when you are defending a FOB for example and the range is either medium or long. But buckshots are very strong for an offensive play, when you and your squad is attacking a nest for instance. So yeah, it's better when you have both. But if I have to choose I think I'll choose buckshot because of the crazy damage
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Re: Buckshot vs Slug: The final debate.

Post by ty55101 » 05 Jan 2017, 15:30

Marcus Jackson wrote:On the flip-side, buck will shred the piss out of any lower-Xeno that get's too confident like a cheesegrater. They hear buck go off and suddenly they think "Oh, this baldie is gonna FF so hard when I pounce.", and suddenly they get shredded because the two dudes that went scouting had buck on them. The Xenos are over confidant around buck because of FF being a bigger issue, but they don't realise that buckshot hurts like hell, and even if they crit their own, they probably got a Xeno or two critted in the crossfire. If we had an entire squad use only shottys, and divided the slugs and buck evenly they would decimate any CQC situation. No contest.
You say this, but just yesterday I was instakilled from full health with buckshot cause someone wasn't paying attention to if anyone was in front of them.
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Re: Buckshot vs Slug: The final debate.

Post by Surrealistik » 05 Jan 2017, 16:29

Slugs are awful and are in serious need of a buff. If you're going to have any kind of secondary munition for the shotgun it would be incendiary.
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Re: Buckshot vs Slug: The final debate.

Post by Abbysynth » 05 Jan 2017, 17:43

Buckshot is just way OP, in real life it's just a wide area scatter, buck is specifically designed not to penetrate too far so you don't end up having to pick 10000 deep pieces out of the deer you just shot with it, whereas a slug will (depending on range) blast straight through the deer's skull and out the other side and leave a huge gaping impact wound; it is generally used for accuracy, range, and force. It's great that buckshot exists in game but the individual shrapnels do WAY too much damage, it should realistically be plinking off of anything with armor and definitely not one-shotting anything. If buckshot was ever used in the actual movie with the only appearance of the M37 it would have just rattled off the xenos instead of blowing holes in them.

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Re: Buckshot vs Slug: The final debate.

Post by Surrealistik » 05 Jan 2017, 17:54

Let's keep in mind that most Xenos aren't heavily armored at all; buckshot should definitely penetrate T1s and most T2s, which it is generally most effective against. If you want to make a case that it should be less effective vs say Crushers and some T3s on the basis of realism, that's more acceptable.

Also I wouldn't call buckshot OP; it's high risk, high reward vs rifles and has enough downsides to compensate for their stopping power given their complete lack of range and ammo capacity. Slugs are _definitely_ underpowered, especially as a ranged option compared to rifles.
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Re: Buckshot vs Slug: The final debate.

Post by ty55101 » 05 Jan 2017, 17:59

Abbysynth wrote:Buckshot is just way OP, in real life it's just a wide area scatter, buck is specifically designed not to penetrate too far so you don't end up having to pick 10000 deep pieces out of the deer you just shot with it, whereas a slug will (depending on range) blast straight through the deer's skull and out the other side and leave a huge gaping impact wound; it is generally used for accuracy, range, and force. It's great that buckshot exists in game but the individual shrapnels do WAY too much damage, it should realistically be plinking off of anything with armor and definitely not one-shotting anything. If buckshot was ever used in the actual movie with the only appearance of the M37 it would have just rattled off the xenos instead of blowing holes in them.
Something I learned a long time ago playing SS13 is that it isn't about what is realistic but what balances the game correctly.
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Re: Buckshot vs Slug: The final debate.

Post by Sad_Corn » 05 Jan 2017, 18:27

I was using slug a lot those last rounds, as standard marine, and i'm very sad about it

Can barely penetrate crushers at 3-4 tiles away, can't kill a young runner with two shots, you NEED the attachs, or you won't have accuracy

Just don't use it, it isn't situational at all, it's just bad
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Re: Buckshot vs Slug: The final debate.

Post by Derpislav » 06 Jan 2017, 04:02

Abbysynth wrote:in real life it's just a wide area scatter
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Also, buckshot at close range doesn't need penetration - if a slug hits something it can't penetrate, it will shatter, deflect to the side, and generally waste a lot of energy that could go into the target. Buckshot will deliver all that energy anyways, literally punching a hole without ever penetrating in the usual sense. Against flexible armour they're roughly equal, but xeno chitin is rigid, so close range buckshot would have a better chance of cracking it.

That's considering realism. Now, in gameplay terms... Slugs really need a buff. Buckshot is high risk-extreme reward, whereas slugs are medium risk-no reward at all. Bruh.
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Re: Buckshot vs Slug: The final debate.

Post by Supermichael777 » 06 Jan 2017, 23:05

the only reason to use slugs is because the master key doesn't come in the other flavor and is strictly better if you don't have a sadar near.

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Re: Buckshot vs Slug: The final debate.

Post by Marcus Jackson » 05 Feb 2017, 18:15

ty55101 wrote:You say this, but just yesterday I was instakilled from full health with buckshot cause someone wasn't paying attention to if anyone was in front of them.
I say this in the off chance you get put on a squad who know how to actually control their fire. However rare that may be is admittedly a problem -_-

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Re: Buckshot vs Slug: The final debate.

Post by caleeb101 » 11 Mar 2017, 11:21

If I ever use a shotgun which is quite rare, I always load up on slugs, simply because they are so much easier to control. My number one policy is minimal FF. I'm not an experienced shotgun user so I will use whatever is closest to what I am comfortable with. Plus, slugs give me the feeling that I'm using a rifle like the Springfield or something. A poor mans version though since the range is measly compared to a rifles range.
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Re: Buckshot vs Slug: The final debate.

Post by Karmac » 11 Mar 2017, 12:33

If you're using slugs because you're not experienced with the shotgun, don't use it, the shotgun is a backup weapon at best due to how situational it is compared to the pulse rifle, so if you feel like using slugs to minimise FF, you're better off taking a pulse rifle so you'll actually do damage if you hit a xeno. Not to mention slugs do roughly the same damage of a pulse rifle round, give or take a bit.
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Re: Buckshot vs Slug: The final debate.

Post by ZDashe » 11 Mar 2017, 20:22

Shotguns are meant for close quarters, so naturally I'd prefer buckshot due to its DPS, stopping power, and proximity zone denial. Especially useful when you're rounding a tight corner. Great against close range Xenos (Runners/Hunters/Ravagers/Crushers) If i'm going long range, I would swap to using a rifle instead because it would have better suppressive fire, range, and a tighter arc of fire. Best used against long range Xenos (Sentinel/Spitters/Boilers/Praetorians). Really no reason to use slugs when a rifle would have higher DPS, capacity and suppressive capability than a shotgun would at long range either. Only exception is if you get incendiary slugs, then it might still be useful somewhat.
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Re: Buckshot vs Slug: The final debate.

Post by Marcus Jackson » 11 Mar 2017, 22:46

The biggest benefit to slugs is the penetration of armor, though I personally think slugs should be a bit more beefy in terms of damage on everybody. The best reason for putting slugs in a shotty is that there are alot of full boxes and that no one is even using them, so no worries about being the first to grab them like Pulse Rifle-AP clips (and we all know that some people take like 5 when they SHOULD be taking 3, and then get nested in the first five seconds) or other special ammo types like incendiary. The only bad part about the shotgun is that it's pump-action... and the GOOD shotties are locked in the armory or given to mercs (What's up with that anyway?). I carry both buck and slugs on me at all times as SL, and when xenos think they've got you beat in CQC it's fun to blast them to pieces in 2 or 3 shots.

Really the shotgun is only good for SL's and other people who need to stay near the back or middle of combat, like an engineer or a doctor who has the worst luck. It's not a frontline weapon and should not be used as such, otherwise you have people say: "Oh this shotgun is so shit, we should just remove it for something else!" because they get killed by using it wrong.

Best tactic I've found so far, have 1/2 of the ammo belt be slugs, and the other 1/2 be buck, then you've got the ammo for every situation.

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Re: Buckshot vs Slug: The final debate.

Post by Karmac » 11 Mar 2017, 22:48

Except slugs armor penetration and damage equates to a single pulse rifle AP round, and buckshot has just as good a chance if not better to pierce armor than slugs. And if your best reason to use slugs is 'because there's plenty of them to go around', you're clearly in a very bad situation.
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Re: Buckshot vs Slug: The final debate.

Post by Marcus Jackson » 12 Mar 2017, 17:52

Carmac wrote:Except slugs armor penetration and damage equates to a single pulse rifle AP round, and buckshot has just as good a chance if not better to pierce armor than slugs. And if your best reason to use slugs is 'because there's plenty of them to go around', you're clearly in a very bad situation.
Buck does have a chance for penetration, (though it's never guaranteed) but it does have a very high FF chance to balance it out. Also, having lots of slugs available isn't really a bad thing if no one takes em, because people either aren't using shotties or people rely solely on buck. Slugs are for safer and more assured damage-dealing, but are best used from holding positions on the battlefield or when you are just keeping the back of the squad safe, buck is more for the times of either heavy advancing (or defending against certain doom) and keeping the xenos at bay long enough for them to do something stupid or leave you alone. Neither is perfect, and I've seen plenty of people get killed in remarkably stupid ways using both ammo types because they don't think of their weapon as a shotgun.

Yeah having the same damage as an AP round doesn't seem like much, but it's usually enough to get smaller xenos to back off completely, and make the bigger ones hesitate for a second or two. And like I said, yes you could get a pulse rifle and AP ammo... but there is no guarantee of there actually being any left (especially when you have lots of players going marine during high-pop.) when you finally get to the front of the line that eventually forms, so having such a high count of buck and slugs is a balancing force for the weapons-list the marines can choose from.

I just wish SL's could get the non-pump shotty from the their vendor like the incinerator, rather than wait for the shit to hit the fan and for CO to open the armory.

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Re: Buckshot vs Slug: The final debate.

Post by Karmac » 12 Mar 2017, 18:17

I don't think you understand the premise of the shotgun, it was never designed to be a 'safe' weapon, it's always going to be 'high risk high reward' and if you're using buckshot that reward is a significantly better payout than if you're using slugs. The FF will never dissappear no matter what gun you use, just pay attention to who has what gun in your squad and don't stand anywhere remotely close to the shotgun guys.

In my personal opinion however, you really can't consider the shotgun to be a primary weapon, it's use in CM combat is far too limited as opposed to the pulse rifle, which is useful in just about any situation, even close range. It should be taken as a secondary weapon that you would only bring out in situations where it out-performs the pulse rifle, like clearing resin walls/doors, camping well-used tunnels and vents, or just sitting behind your pulse rifle buddies and waiting for a runner to pounce them so you can show them why they should fear the buck.
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Re: Buckshot vs Slug: The final debate.

Post by Antopathos » 16 Mar 2017, 10:57

Slugs doing less damage than buckshot or rifle is absolute crock. Slugs are used to break open tough locks, and they do it better than full-sized rifle rounds. In comparison, the 10x24mm has just a bit more muzzle velocity and bullet weight than a 7.62x51mm NATO.

Unfortunately the aliens cant be crippled AFAIK, so buckshot doesn't have the advantage of incapacitating several limbs at once. Conversely, the slug might do only little damage if it overpenetrates merely a limb. Although in real life, buckshot spreads wide only after a football field of distance, or so I've read. It's an obsolete videogame, can't be helped.

In any case, the slugs should do much more damage than they do right now.

EDIT: Actually, they should just have a lot more penetration. If the lore about 10x24mm is the same in the movies and in this game, it's supposed to explode inside the target, which would definitely cause more damage than a slug just going through. The slug should be able to penetrate multiple xenos though, while the 10x24mm explodes on the first.

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Re: Buckshot vs Slug: The final debate.

Post by El Defaultio » 16 Mar 2017, 12:40

Carmac wrote:I don't think you understand the premise of the shotgun, it was never designed to be a 'safe' weapon, it's always going to be 'high risk high reward' and if you're using buckshot that reward is a significantly better payout than if you're using slugs. The FF will never dissappear no matter what gun you use, just pay attention to who has what gun in your squad and don't stand anywhere remotely close to the shotgun guys.

In my personal opinion however, you really can't consider the shotgun to be a primary weapon, it's use in CM combat is far too limited as opposed to the pulse rifle, which is useful in just about any situation, even close range. It should be taken as a secondary weapon that you would only bring out in situations where it out-performs the pulse rifle, like clearing resin walls/doors, camping well-used tunnels and vents, or just sitting behind your pulse rifle buddies and waiting for a runner to pounce them so you can show them why they should fear the buck.
Personally, I believe the shotgun is just as good as the pulse rifle. I don't think everyone should have one, but it adds a lot to a basic squad. I generally pick it up if I'm not playing a boot, (or other roles that get cooler weapons. f l a m e w e r f e r) as medics/engis usually have to get really close to xenos, whether they like it or not. it's a really good feeling assblasting an alien with buck, stunning them so they get killed. Compared to the pulse, its a lot more situational. the pulse is a jack of all trades and it comes pre-equipped with an ugl, allowing it to rekt queenies, whereas the shotgun is really damn good at close/medium if you're packing slugs. and at the end of the day, pumping the shotgun with one hand feels badass while dragging someone away. That's a feeling ya don't get from a pulse.

more on topic: i always bring 4 boxes of buckshot, 1 of slug. as carmac has said: high risk, med-high reward. buckshot: higher risk, orgasmic rewards. nothing says fuck you more than a head full of lead, and the buckshot is really good for that. While the slug is "AP", the buckshot does a fuck ton of damage anyways making it superb at shooting the fuck outta anything. It's only problem is it's short range (if you don't include FF lulz), but the slug isn't much better and if you want to use slugs mostly you might as well stick with the pulse rifle. You should have both as a shotgunner, but you should be using the buckshot more. The sheer damage and stun is crazy.
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Re: Buckshot vs Slug: The final debate.

Post by Karmac » 16 Mar 2017, 12:44

Dedicated shotgunners should definitely be in the minority in my opinion, but my new favorite thing to do is pack a gyro'd mag harness'd shotgun with buckshot loaded in my suit slot and put my pulse rifle on my back, I get the utility of the rifle and the situational advantage of an easily accessible high damage stun.
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Re: Buckshot vs Slug: The final debate.

Post by El Defaultio » 16 Mar 2017, 12:50

Of course dedicated shotgunners should be the minority. But they have their purpose and they're damn good at it. As well, gyro mag harness shotgun with a rifle on your back is damn good as a boot, but sadly as a medic or engi I can't ditch my backpack without letting people get killed. But as the minority "BASICS OF CQC" member in their squad, they should be packing mostly buck or they should geddafukkout. If you want range, slugs aren't even that good. You're better off using a pistol or better yet a pulse rifle.
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