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Increase Cargo points when Xeno populations are high.

Posted: 19 Apr 2017, 15:01
by Garrison
Summary (a quick, 2-3 sentence summary): Inspired by: viewtopic.php?f=133&t=12262, and viewtopic.php?f=59&t=7437. When Xenos outnumber marines by a massive number, Requisitions should get double or triple cargo points per 30 seconds

Benefits (How this will benefit the server and game as a whole): Will allow Requisitions to produce more supplies for the marines so they can stay competitive when they are up against overwhelming numbers

Details (Description of how you think this would work, the benefits, etc): The main intention here is to provide the marines a fighting chance when the Xeno forces are so large compared to the marines, they simply cannot fight back. Or so I presume since aPoP mentioned that the game is balanced because Marines typically out number Xeno's (paraphrasing that). However, what is in place for when the opposite is in effect? a Xeno victory seems almost guaranteed if Xenos start out severely outnumbering the marines. My idea to give Cargo extra income in this situation is to help keep the scales even, but without buffing the marines too much unless they coordinate their efforts.

Implementation (Optional, if you have an idea how to implement it): If the ratio of Xeno's to marines is at specific thresholds, Requisitions gets a multiplier to how many points they get per 30 seconds.

Re: Increase Cargo points when Xeno populations are high.

Posted: 19 Apr 2017, 15:05
by Dirty Old Harry
No.

Xenos are supposed to have superior numbers while Marines have versatility. Also Req getting points simply because the Marines are outnumbered? If this is the case then Req will be swimming in points on most rounds.

-1

Re: Increase Cargo points when Xeno populations are high.

Posted: 19 Apr 2017, 15:35
by Swagile
Dirty Old Harry wrote:No.

Xenos are supposed to have superior numbers while Marines have versatility. Also Req getting points simply because the Marines are outnumbered? If this is the case then Req will be swimming in points on most rounds.

-1


Versatility is being cut in Marines every single "update".

The marines no longer have the Versatility that you believe they have, especially with the constant nerfing of Engineering, so if xenos start with huge numbers early game its almost guaranteed xeno victory unless marines have like four SADAR's or the xenos suck major ass.

Re: Increase Cargo points when Xeno populations are high.

Posted: 19 Apr 2017, 17:20
by Craftedminer
Swagile wrote:Versatility is being cut in Marines every single "update".

The marines no longer have the Versatility that you believe they have, especially with the constant nerfing of Engineering, so if xenos start with huge numbers early game its almost guaranteed xeno victory unless marines have like four SADAR's or the xenos suck major ass.


-1 for me for this exact scenario,

If we have a high starting Xeno population, then based on the system proposed by the time the Xenos begin boarding the Sulaco, Cargo could've ordered crates and crates of supplies by the time they board.

Let's do some maths to show this,

Based on the point values listed on the wiki I counted all the point values listed for every crate under Operations, Weapons, Ammo, and Armour, in addition to a few other crates such as crates for steel and medical supplies, and calculated the mean of this to be 42.5 points per crate.

So again looking at the wiki Cargo gets 2 points every 30 seconds, meaning that again after doing some maths and assume Cargo had 0 points it would take 10.625 minutes to get the points to buy that mean crate. If we applied a double multiplier we get 5.315 minutes, triple multiplier knocks this down to 3.542 minutes.
Let's see how this difference mounts up over time in just one hour,

Crates that can be ordered in an hour with no multiplier: 5.65, 5 rounded down.
Crates that can be ordered with a 2x multiplier attached: 11.29, 11 rounded down.
Crates that can be ordered with a 3x multiplier attached:16.94, 16 rounded down.

This as you can see results in a huge difference over time, and effectively allows Cargo to order everything they want without worrying about prioritising. This could have some massive consequences for gameplay, by the time the Xenos push the marines back to the FOB, Engineers could very well have the whole place on lockdown if given even an hour to set up with the support of Cargo. This may result in a situation were the Xenos would largely be wiped out if they attacked the FOB but the marines way too understaffed to drive them back to the caves.

Re: Increase Cargo points when Xeno populations are high.

Posted: 19 Apr 2017, 17:34
by Garrison
Craftedminer wrote:-1 for me for this exact scenario,

If we have a high starting Xeno population, then based on the system you proposed by the time the Xenos begin boarding the Sulaco, Cargo could've ordered crates and crates of supplies by the time they board.

Let's do some maths to show this,

Based on the point values listed on the wiki I counted all the point values listed for every crate under Operations, Weapons, Ammo, and Armour, in addition to a few other crates such as crates for steel and medical supplies, and calculated the mean of this to be 42.5 points per crate.

So again looking at the wiki Cargo gets 2 points every 30 seconds, meaning that again after doing some maths and assume Cargo had 0 points it would take 10.625 minutes to get the points to buy that mean crate. If we applied a double multiplier we get 5.315 minutes, triple multiplier knocks this down to 3.542 minutes.
Let's see how this difference mounts up over time in just one hour,

Crates that can be ordered in an hour with no multiplier: 5.65, 5 rounded down.
Crates that can be ordered with a 2x multiplier attached: 11.29, 11 rounded down.
Crates that can be ordered with a 3x multiplier attached:16.94, 16 rounded down.

This as you can see results in a huge difference over time, and effectively allows Cargo to order everything they want without worrying about prioritising. This could have some massive consequences for gameplay, by the time the Xenos push the marines back to the FOB, Engineers could very well have the whole place on lockdown if given even an hour to set up with the support of Cargo. This may result in a situation were the Xenos would largely be wiped out if they attacked the FOB but the marines way too understaffed to drive them back to the caves.


That is a valid point, I didn't think that far ahead. But I still feel that with all the nerfs that marines have been getting, in addition to how the game is already balanced, marines need some sort of edge to deal with fights when they are outnumbered 4 to 1. Otherwise what is the point of trying to fight a war where defeat is almost immediately assured? Marines already struggle when trying to fight inferior numbers of Xenos, how the heck are they supposed to fight against superior numbers?

EDIT: to clarify, I'm don't mean the typical late game rounds where most marines are dead, I'm talking about extreme scenarios such as the ones mentioned here: viewtopic.php?f=133&t=12262

Re: Increase Cargo points when Xeno populations are high.

Posted: 19 Apr 2017, 18:22
by Craftedminer
Garrison wrote:That is a valid point, I didn't think that far ahead. But I still feel that with all the nerfs that marines have been getting, in addition to how the game is already balanced, marines need some sort of edge to deal with fights when they are outnumbered 4 to 1. Otherwise what is the point of trying to fight a war where defeat is almost immediately assured? Marines already struggle when trying to fight inferior numbers of Xenos, how the heck are they supposed to fight against superior numbers?

EDIT: to clarify, I'm don't mean the typical late game rounds where most marines are dead, I'm talking about extreme scenarios such as the ones mentioned here: viewtopic.php?f=133&t=12262


I do believe in the high Xeno populations being looked into for a gameplay balance perspective, however I think generally the solution is going to have to come from a few changes as opposed to one singular change.

I think there needs to be a discussion and a lot of number crunching in order to deal with high Xeno pop for example, what is the definition of a high Xeno population game? You could answer this by looking for the point at which the Xeno win rate increases by a statistically significant margin when compared to population, this would be vital for suggestions like yours that depend on a definition of a high Xeno population.

Ultimately, I feel like an investigation would need to be conducted into where the marines are falling down in high Xeno games, such as the holes in leadership the marines experience over the course of a round, the specific breakdown of the hive etc... before we can start suggesting potential fixes to the problem of how the marines fight back.

Re: Increase Cargo points when Xeno populations are high.

Posted: 19 Apr 2017, 18:25
by Swagile
Having all those fortifications doesn't mean shit if the xenos have 4 boilers, 3 ravagers, and 3 crushers (this is just an example of the T3 lineup High Pop has).

You NEED all those points because otherwise its literally just a fucking xeno stomp, and its unfun as fuck to fight.

Re: Increase Cargo points when Xeno populations are high.

Posted: 20 Apr 2017, 08:08
by Dirty Old Harry
Swagile wrote: You NEED all those points because otherwise its literally just a fucking xeno stomp, and its unfun as fuck to fight.


That's where i have to disagree, fighting T3 xenos and valiantly trying to hold the Nexus as the Queen and all her daughters storm the place is the moment i play CM for. Fighting, dying and occasionally actually turning the tide on them is the best part of the game and anyone that says otherwise is lying.

Yes it can be unfair at times but god damn it, it's made to be 70/30 in favour of the Xenos and the moments when you do actually see a Marine major are fucking glorious. Hearing the "God has a hardon for Marines" line gives me a fucking har- anyways, yes it's unfair to play Marine but if you put in all that extra effort and do actually live to see a hard fought 2-3 hour round finish in light of Marines then it's a fantastic feeling.

Re: Increase Cargo points when Xeno populations are high.

Posted: 20 Apr 2017, 10:57
by Swagile
Dirty Old Harry wrote:That's where i have to disagree, fighting T3 xenos and valiantly trying to hold the Nexus as the Queen and all her daughters storm the place is the moment i play CM for. Fighting, dying and occasionally actually turning the tide on them is the best part of the game and anyone that says otherwise is lying.

Yes it can be unfair at times but god damn it, it's made to be 70/30 in favour of the Xenos and the moments when you do actually see a Marine major are fucking glorious. Hearing the "God has a hardon for Marines" line gives me a fucking har- anyways, yes it's unfair to play Marine but if you put in all that extra effort and do actually live to see a hard fought 2-3 hour round finish in light of Marines then it's a fantastic feeling.


So do I, so do I. But there is literally almost nothing you can do with four boiler clouds dropping onto your FOB (especially since there's only a RNG chance that tables will block the gas) alongside three crushers charging and ravs charging limbs off except for OB's that aren't metagamed / EXTREMELY well timed, and 4 SADAR Spec. Both instances are really rare and so your FOB usually only lasts for about 10 minutes or so unless the xenos REALLY suck, then you can survive for more depending on how hard your fighting and the level of suck xenos are at.

Re: Increase Cargo points when Xeno populations are high.

Posted: 20 Apr 2017, 11:28
by Crab_Spider
Swagile wrote:So do I, so do I. But there is literally almost nothing you can do with four boiler clouds dropping onto your FOB (especially since there's only a RNG chance that tables will block the gas) alongside three crushers charging and ravs charging limbs off except for OB's that aren't metagamed / EXTREMELY well timed, and 4 SADAR Spec. Both instances are really rare and so your FOB usually only lasts for about 10 minutes or so unless the xenos REALLY suck, then you can survive for more depending on how hard your fighting and the level of suck xenos are at.


Theres something called adapting to strategy.

Re: Increase Cargo points when Xeno populations are high.

Posted: 20 Apr 2017, 12:05
by Reuben Owen
Swagile wrote:So do I, so do I. But there is literally almost nothing you can do with four boiler clouds dropping onto your FOB (especially since there's only a RNG chance that tables will block the gas) alongside three crushers charging and ravs charging limbs off except for OB's that aren't metagamed / EXTREMELY well timed, and 4 SADAR Spec. Both instances are really rare and so your FOB usually only lasts for about 10 minutes or so unless the xenos REALLY suck, then you can survive for more depending on how hard your fighting and the level of suck xenos are at.

In this situation you can:
-run away to sulaco
-put ob in your FOB, move away and let them take, flank and blow them up
-put all the turrets together
-use fire and shoot the ravs
-git gud
-move somewhere else

Re: Increase Cargo points when Xeno populations are high.

Posted: 20 Apr 2017, 17:23
by Swagile
Reuben Owen wrote:In this situation you can:
-run away to sulaco
-put ob in your FOB, move away and let them take, flank and blow them up
-put all the turrets together
-use fire and shoot the ravs
-git gud
-move somewhere else


1. Shitty option, because boilers on Sulaco are even more effective because most rooms in the Sulaco only need two boiler bombs and their now fully gassed. The only places where this isn't the case is Hangar, Briefing, Requisitions, Cryo, and partially Bridge. Four boilers is enough to cover all of those open area's except Hangar completely and even then, in the Hangar situation it covers most of it.

2. Again, possible if you have really good timing and you have two OB's and the xeno's don't expect it and they also don't run away the moment they hear the BEEP BEEP BEEP noise that sounds off over ALL OTHER NOISES. Very unlikely though.

3. Shitty option because you have a limited amount of flamer ammo and it will only keep the non-ravs back for a while; boiler gas will slowly whittle you down and also decreases flamer range because you need to be able to see in order to shoot flames.

4. ???, not an actual strategy, just a meme answer.

5. Not possible, as FOB's take time and resources to build. Once they are built, they take a lot of time to take down, especially during combat. And even if you move the FOB, where will you move it that can repell the hoarde of T3's that is High Pop Xenos?

Re: Increase Cargo points when Xeno populations are high.

Posted: 20 Apr 2017, 17:27
by Swagile
Crab_Spider wrote:Theres something called adapting to strategy.


Strategy only gets you so far.

A famous saying; "knowing is half the battle".

But the other half is actually being able to apply your knowledge. As a Commander, your "weapon" is logistics; field surgeons, medical supplies being sent down, WeylandMeds hacked and sent down, supply drops, requisitions.

That is your half the battle; you could have an epic battle plan and have all your marines follow it, but your requisition is shit and an hour into the game you have no helmets, no flares, no ammo, no metal, and no plastisteel being sent down which leads to your men all being killed and / or retreating with heavy casualties.

Re: Increase Cargo points when Xeno populations are high.

Posted: 20 Apr 2017, 19:03
by Reuben Owen
[quote="Swagile"][/quote]
so what what you want as a hypothetical 6th option that sucks less than any of those but isn't game breaking or involves mass spec weapons?

Re: Increase Cargo points when Xeno populations are high.

Posted: 20 Apr 2017, 19:05
by Swagile
Reuben Owen wrote:so what what you want as a hypothetical 6th option that sucks less than any of those but isn't game breaking or involves mass spec weapons?


This literally is the answer, and its not overpowered considering general marine incompetence will crop up and be unable to use the supplies correctly, or req itself sucks, etc. This would only work if marines are competent, but even in a game where marines are competent, high pop xenos is shit to fight against especially if xenos know what they are doing.

Re: Increase Cargo points when Xeno populations are high.

Posted: 20 Apr 2017, 19:44
by Crab_Spider
Swagile wrote:This literally is the answer, and its not overpowered considering general marine incompetence will crop up and be unable to use the supplies correctly, or req itself sucks, etc. This would only work if marines are competent, but even in a game where marines are competent, high pop xenos is shit to fight against especially if xenos know what they are doing.


That's not the answer though, you throw the word incompetence around as though it has enough weight to it to make this suggestion work. It doesn't. What would help Marines more are more ways to get cargo points that require strenuous methods, not something that is entirely dependent on the population of the opposition. Let's also return to the fact thatu most alien victories stem from constant force, Marines just never think to do the same. Remember how you can order 2 boxes of mines, and it was meted because Xur kept fucking mass ordering them and placing them everywhere? Well that was merged to 1 box, and now Marines have enough explosives, barrel chargers, powerful guns, and incedinary slugs to take on xenos. Just because there are more xenos than Marines doesn't mean Marines deserve to be coddled, we shouldn't play like that.

Re: Increase Cargo points when Xeno populations are high.

Posted: 20 Apr 2017, 20:42
by Dirty Old Harry
Crab_Spider wrote:That's not the answer though, you throw the word incompetence around as though it has enough weight to it to make this suggestion work. It doesn't. What would help Marines more are more ways to get cargo points that require strenuous methods, not something that is entirely dependent on the population of the opposition. Let's also return to the fact thatu most alien victories stem from constant force, Marines just never think to do the same. Remember how you can order 2 boxes of mines, and it was meted because Xur kept fucking mass ordering them and placing them everywhere? Well that was merged to 1 box, and now Marines have enough explosives, barrel chargers, powerful guns, and incedinary slugs to take on xenos. Just because there are more xenos than Marines doesn't mean Marines deserve to be coddled, we shouldn't play like that.


Fucking. Nailed it.

Re: Increase Cargo points when Xeno populations are high.

Posted: 20 Apr 2017, 21:44
by Swagile
Crab_Spider wrote:That's not the answer though, you throw the word incompetence around as though it has enough weight to it to make this suggestion work. It doesn't. What would help Marines more are more ways to get cargo points that require strenuous methods, not something that is entirely dependent on the population of the opposition. Let's also return to the fact thatu most alien victories stem from constant force, Marines just never think to do the same. Remember how you can order 2 boxes of mines, and it was meted because Xur kept fucking mass ordering them and placing them everywhere? Well that was merged to 1 box, and now Marines have enough explosives, barrel chargers, powerful guns, and incedinary slugs to take on xenos. Just because there are more xenos than Marines doesn't mean Marines deserve to be coddled, we shouldn't play like that.


I agree on a better way of getting cargo points, like maybe sending in the diamond + silver + gold + other materials you can find in Secure Storage and the little pod at Cargo Containers near North River.

Xeno constant force is easy to apply; their acid is infinite, their plasma is infinite, and their abilities recharge relatively quickly.

In high pop, there are tons of marines, which means they take up almost all of the ammo from Marine Prep, most of the flares, and all of the AP. They also only have a limited amount of plastisteel and only four turrets.

All of these have huge price tags on requisitions, and ALL of these items can easily be taken down by high pop xenos. On the reverse, a competent Drone with some T3's can stall entire squads worth of ammo because it keeps shitting out Resin walls + sticky resin and then recharges after one minute then goes again (depends on upgrade level as well).

So some competent xenos can stop the entire marine force from pushing if they know what they are doing, and in high pop, there is a higher chance of that happening.

However, Marines have no equivalent of this; and whenever they find out a strategy that is just as cheesy (see: Xur's mine spamming) its nerfed into the ground by the dev team or completely removed / banned (cleaner grenades are another cheese thats banned).

Also, about the end of your paragraph, you mentioned chargers, inc slugs, etc. what do you mean by that? Marines don't get extra chargers, powerful guns, or inc slugs; they all get standard guns and at best maybe a marksman most of the time unless an admin spawns shit.

Re: Increase Cargo points when Xeno populations are high.

Posted: 21 Apr 2017, 00:37
by Garrison
Crab_Spider wrote:That's not the answer though, you throw the word incompetence around as though it has enough weight to it to make this suggestion work. It doesn't. What would help Marines more are more ways to get cargo points that require strenuous methods, not something that is entirely dependent on the population of the opposition. Let's also return to the fact thatu most alien victories stem from constant force, Marines just never think to do the same. Remember how you can order 2 boxes of mines, and it was meted because Xur kept fucking mass ordering them and placing them everywhere? Well that was merged to 1 box, and now Marines have enough explosives, barrel chargers, powerful guns, and incedinary slugs to take on xenos. Just because there are more xenos than Marines doesn't mean Marines deserve to be coddled, we shouldn't play like that.


If it isn't the answer, then what should it be? Because the concept of Xeno bias revolves around the notion that not many marines that die want to become Xeno's. So what is to be done if this reality doesn't come to pass, and everyone who is dead becomes a Xeno? That's what I'm trying to find a solution for here. I thought giving cargo extra points would be a subtle yet effective fix, since Command and Cargo would still have to coordinate and budget their points in order to ensure that the marines have enough metal for R&D to make grenades or for Engineers to maintain their fortifications. Or an extra sentry gun or two because they got destroyed or their current sentry guns are simply not enough to hold a theoretical army of xenos at bay.

Mine fields can be countered by Crushers, Sentry guns are countered by a group effort of a boiler and Hunter('s), all of which can (possibly?) be in abundance when the Hive has 40-60 Xeno's on their side.

But I am willing to concede that this idea might not be the best way to resolve the problem of the Standard army of Marines who somehow end up fighting double or triple the amount of Xeno's they usually have to fight. Some of the folks here seem to have quite a bit of insight into this. So is there an alternative here that can be found?

Re: Increase Cargo points when Xeno populations are high.

Posted: 21 Apr 2017, 07:11
by Crab_Spider
Garrison wrote:If it isn't the answer, then what should it be? Because the concept of Xeno bias revolves around the notion that not many marines that die want to become Xeno's. So what is to be done if this reality doesn't come to pass, and everyone who is dead becomes a Xeno? That's what I'm trying to find a solution for here. I thought giving cargo extra points would be a subtle yet effective fix, since Command and Cargo would still have to coordinate and budget their points in order to ensure that the marines have enough metal for R&D to make grenades or for Engineers to maintain their fortifications. Or an extra sentry gun or two because they got destroyed or their current sentry guns are simply not enough to hold a theoretical army of xenos at bay.

Mine fields can be countered by Crushers, Sentry guns are countered by a group effort of a boiler and Hunter('s), all of which can (possibly?) be in abundance when the Hive has 40-60 Xeno's on their side.

But I am willing to concede that this idea might not be the best way to resolve the problem of the Standard army of Marines who somehow end up fighting double or triple the amount of Xeno's they usually have to fight. Some of the folks here seem to have quite a bit of insight into this. So is there an alternative here that can be found?


Ways to gain cargo points like sending up the corpses of T3 xenomorphs onto supply shuttles would be a good alternative, or even bringing back exotic items such as the alien blade, primitive mask, and minerals. Stocking weapons and ammunition would also help too.

Re: Increase Cargo points when Xeno populations are high.

Posted: 21 Apr 2017, 09:25
by Sarah_U.
You guys want to know my opinion on this?

Sure, you could increase points given to the marines if they were to be outnumbered! Although, that's not a solution I would like to get behind; Rather, here's another one I'd like to propose:
Add a mean for admins to control the flux of points being given, so that they're free to increase it if the USMC high command / W-Y corporations are informed with the downfall of their forward operative and such- OR RATHER, literally cut it off during mutinies and whatnot!

That would offer great roleplay, that would offer more leeway, that would offer more dynamic and less automated hindrance.
Overall, it'd even allow for a way to be used later-on by dev to grant points for future implementations and/or increase points in exchange for xeno bodies / tech.

No demerit in the solution I provide, but yours has the serious issue of giving constant fluctuations to the intake of points around 7~AM where the pop is low and suddently doubles one hour later. You get what I mean.

NEUTRAL

Re: Increase Cargo points when Xeno populations are high.

Posted: 21 Apr 2017, 10:47
by OatzAndHoes
+1
Swag pretty much nails it.
Swagile wrote:Versatility is being cut in Marines every single "update".

The marines no longer have the Versatility that you believe they have, especially with the constant nerfing of Engineering, so if xenos start with huge numbers early game its almost guaranteed xeno victory unless marines have like four SADAR's or the xenos suck major ass.

Re: Increase Cargo points when Xeno populations are high.

Posted: 22 May 2017, 11:25
by Snypehunter007
Not really, reasonable in regards to IC reasons.

Asking this to be locked.

Re: Increase Cargo points when Xeno populations are high.

Posted: 22 May 2017, 11:28
by Sarah_U.
It's reasonable if the scans are done and points are relocated to cargo at that time.

Otherwise it's unreasonable if it's done at the start of the round, still neutral, would be fine with a +1.

Re: Increase Cargo points when Xeno populations are high.

Posted: 22 May 2017, 12:40
by Crab_Spider
Swagile wrote:Also, about the end of your paragraph, you mentioned chargers, inc slugs, etc. what do you mean by that? Marines don't get extra chargers, powerful guns, or inc slugs; they all get standard guns and at best maybe a marksman most of the time unless an admin spawns shit.


All of those are things you can order, you get one barrel charger in a muzzle crate, and incedinary slugs from a spec ops ammo crates. You ALSO sometimes get a custom built shotgun from a black market crate (that one handed gun that has a burst fire setting and makes short work of T3s) 2 Sentry guns would also be able to be ordered.