Grenade Launcher Unique Ammo

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Grenade Launcher Unique Ammo

Post by Steelpoint » 26 Jun 2016, 08:49

Summary: Change the ammo the Grenade Launcher uses away from actual Frag grenades into unique, non throwable, explosive ammo.

Benefits: The biggest problem with using the Grenade Launcher is scarcity of ammo, you do get a belt with eight grenades, plus your spec locker of two other grenades, but after that you're in a bind. The Explosives Crate (50 points) spawns with two Frag Grenades while the Explosives Ammo Crate (30 Points) spawns with only one, maybe two, Frag Grenades.

There's no easy way to get more ammo, whereas even the SADAR has a easier time of getting more ammo thanks to the Explosive Ammo Crate which spawns six rocket tubes.

My suggestion would allow the developers to put unique Nade launcher ammo into its own crate (or with the ammo crate) to actually allow a Nade Spec to resupply but also avoid giving Marines five or so Grenades per crate.

Details: Grenades are now either non-usable for arming and throwing in hand or are just all inside a sort of magazine/drum barrel.

PS: I tried looking for another similar suggestion but I failed to find one.
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Re: Grenade Launcher Unique Ammo

Post by MauroVega » 26 Jun 2016, 09:37

Steelpoint wrote:plus your spec locker of two other grenades
The vendor has 2 inc and 2 frags
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Re: Grenade Launcher Unique Ammo

Post by Steelpoint » 26 Jun 2016, 09:58

I'm only counting Frag grenades. Incendiary Grenades are less lethal and more for area denial.
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Re: Grenade Launcher Unique Ammo

Post by forwardslashN » 26 Jun 2016, 11:14

You can already do this. You can shoot research grenades which are more powerful and diverse than any other ammo type.
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Re: Grenade Launcher Unique Ammo

Post by forwardslashN » 26 Jun 2016, 11:30

Looks like I misunderstood the topic. Steelpoint wants to make the nade launcher shoot unique ammo like an actual gun (it's not a gun right now, and doesn't function the same). It is actually a gun! So it would be fairly easy to do this. I have the necessary things in place.
Last edited by forwardslashN on 04 Jul 2016, 13:23, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Grenade Launcher Unique Ammo

Post by Steelpoint » 26 Jun 2016, 11:31

Ok let me rephrase.

The reason why Grenades are so limited in number is because any dumb ape can pick one up and use it.

My suggestion is to make the ammo for the Grenade Launcher like the bullets for the Revolver. In that its just ammo and not a weapon by itself.
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Re: Grenade Launcher Unique Ammo

Post by Warnipple » 27 Jun 2016, 01:05

I agree that the scarcity of ammo makes the GL not a very viable weapon. Why have 10 grenades for the grenade launcher when you can have 6 rockets for the SADAR?
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Re: Grenade Launcher Unique Ammo

Post by Steelpoint » 27 Jun 2016, 01:09

Its not just that but getting ammo for the SADAR is relativity easy and inexpensive (by cargo standards) since a new SADAR ammo crate will yield six rockets (admittedly two of them are bad).
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Re: Grenade Launcher Unique Ammo

Post by LordLoko » 27 Jun 2016, 09:11

Are you talking this kind o Granade:

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Re: Grenade Launcher Unique Ammo

Post by Steelpoint » 27 Jun 2016, 12:47

Something like that ^

Akin to Resident Evil or many other games with Grenade Launchers.

The ammo and gun would function the same (gameplay wise, not code wise) but we could afford to not only give Specs more ammo from crates without fear of handing Marines ten or so grenades, but we could expand with more unique grenade launcher ammo types.
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Re: Grenade Launcher Unique Ammo

Post by Boltersam » 04 Jul 2016, 04:37

LordLoko wrote:Are you talking this kind o Granade:

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Yeah, these ones. And, I think they explode on impact, which would help out the launcher greatly.
+1 to the suggestion, anyways. The grenade launcher is really underused and could use this.
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Re: Grenade Launcher Unique Ammo

Post by Steelpoint » 04 Jul 2016, 04:39

To give a example on how often people use the grenade launcher, I've been counting over the course of about fifteen rounds the weapons specs take...

* Sniper: 21
* SADAR: 13
* Smartgun: 12
* B18: 7
* Grenade Launcher: 2 (TWO)
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Re: Grenade Launcher Unique Ammo

Post by Monoo » 04 Jul 2016, 12:03

+1

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Re: Grenade Launcher Unique Ammo

Post by Surrealistik » 04 Jul 2016, 12:37

forwardslashN wrote:You can already do this. You can shoot research grenades which are more powerful and diverse than any other ammo type.
The problem with research nades is they're a PITA to make because:

No default Autolathe.

Autolathe doesn't queue parts.

Further, you have no sink (unless you _really_ want to keep going up to surgery) or water tank access, so on top of everything else, grenade manufacture is very hard on your chem charge.

You get much better return on investment for your time by minting drugs.
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Re: Grenade Launcher Unique Ammo

Post by forwardslashN » 04 Jul 2016, 13:22

Surrealistik wrote:You get much better return on investment for your time by minting drugs.
If you properly que the manufacture process, it's not that hard. I usually have no problems with making a whole bunch of really powerful nades, though no one ever takes them as a spec. And handing them out to standards ends with the hanger destroyed. So I agree that making drugs is probably the better use of your time.
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Re: Grenade Launcher Unique Ammo

Post by Surrealistik » 04 Jul 2016, 13:27

forwardslashN wrote: If you properly que the manufacture process, it's not that hard. I usually have no problems with making a whole bunch of really powerful nades, though no one ever takes them as a spec. And handing them out to standards ends with the hanger destroyed. So I agree that making drugs is probably the better use of your time.
It doesn't matter how you optimize the process; the fact is that at its best, the process takes way too much time vs the alternatives because of its unmitigatable limitations, and on top of that, you depend on one, maybe two people making your massive time investment worth it, whereas spamming and mass distributing combat drugs and peridextricordrazine is much more likely to have a positive impact, while also yielding much more product.

Also chem grenades haven't been powerful since Apop slapped a truly punitive bomb cap on them after I annihilated the Xenos en masse with potassium bombs last year. They're basically glorified stun grenades with a side of collateral damage.
Last edited by Surrealistik on 04 Jul 2016, 13:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grenade Launcher Unique Ammo

Post by forwardslashN » 04 Jul 2016, 13:30

Surrealistik wrote:whereas spamming and mass distributing combat drugs and peridextricordrazine is much more likely to have a positive impact.
One grenade can stun every xeno on the dropship. Two will put them in crit or near to. Discounting crushers. Combat drugs do not come close to this.
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Re: Grenade Launcher Unique Ammo

Post by Surrealistik » 04 Jul 2016, 13:32

forwardslashN wrote: One grenade can stun every xeno on the dropship. Two will put them in crit or near to. Discounting crushers. Combat drugs do not come close to this.
If it's perfectly placed and the xenos don't build walls (they'd be insane not to), and they can't escape the blast.

Yes, in perfect, optimal conditions, the glorified stun nades that 120/120 potassiums have become can surpass combat drugs. Meanwhile combat drugs will be better in every other situation, will be much more likely to score a return on investment and will be much more consistent; all while not posing a risk that a misfire will utterly shrek a squad. A couple of robust marines on a consistent supply of synaptizine, hyperzine, and tramadol will probably do more damage in the long run.
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Re: Grenade Launcher Unique Ammo

Post by forwardslashN » 04 Jul 2016, 13:37

That was a general example. Charging the hive with a fully loaded nade launcher armed with science nades ends in tears for the aliens. This almost never happens because nobody cares enough to take the GL.
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Re: Grenade Launcher Unique Ammo

Post by Steelpoint » 04 Jul 2016, 13:39

If the Nade Launcher is OP ONLY if there is a researcher making nades then just remove that functionality.

My suggestion is to gut the whole system of using actual grenades for ammo and just turn them into explosive tipped revolver rounds with a timer.
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Re: Grenade Launcher Unique Ammo

Post by Surrealistik » 04 Jul 2016, 13:44

forwardslashN wrote:That was a general example. Charging the hive with a fully loaded nade launcher armed with science nades ends in tears for the aliens. This almost never happens because nobody cares enough to take the GL.
Again, depends on the Hive. Again, the problem with grenade spam is it becomes much less effective when you're dealing with a clusterfuck of walls: they shield the stunned xenos, and impede grenade placement. As is, the grenade blast is so weak that it takes multiple grenades to clear a swath and you'll never instagib anything. Your ammo is very limited while Hivelords have practically limitless walls they can build extremely quickly.

Further, it never happens because making grenades is such a time inefficient PITA. Specialists don't take the GL because researchers don't make grenades because making grenades is such a waste of time and is extremely resource heavy between the massive glass, water and potassium consumption.

If you want to make the grenade launcher more viable, you should make grenade manufacture more viable by adding an autolathe and sink to the Sci Lab. Giving the autolathe a build query like the exosuit fabricator would also be huge.
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Re: Grenade Launcher Unique Ammo

Post by Steelpoint » 04 Jul 2016, 13:48

With the Grenade Launcher ammo your competing with ammo for every other Spec weapon.

All Spec weapons barring the SADAR get all their ammo from a single ammo crate, around two magazines worth or rough equivalent. The SADAR just gets its own crate with a full reequip resupply of rockets.

For the Nade Launcher you're stuck getting only two Frag Grenades for a single Explosive Crate. Which costs almost double a spec ammo crate.

Two Frag Grenades are not equilivant to two magazines.
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Re: Grenade Launcher Unique Ammo

Post by forwardslashN » 04 Jul 2016, 19:00

Steelpoint wrote:Two Frag Grenades are not equilivant to two magazines.
Very good point. If anyone has suggestions on how to rework the GL's functions specifically, I can sticky this for apop's review.
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Re: Grenade Launcher Unique Ammo

Post by ShortTemperedLeprechaun » 04 Jul 2016, 19:04

forwardslashN wrote: Very good point. If anyone has suggestions on how to rework the GL's functions specifically, I can sticky this for apop's review.
I'd imagine make it work like an actual grenade launcher 'nube tube'. After X distance, explodes on contact with ground or target? A sadar, with a much smaller blast radius more or less.
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Re: Grenade Launcher Unique Ammo

Post by Steelpoint » 05 Jul 2016, 00:03

There are two ways forward with working how a new grenade ammo type would work.

One would be that its identical to how the grenades work now, for the sake of keeping things consistent for players.

The other is to add in additional ammo types, and rarity to that, that have different functions for the launcher user, and possibly look at making the Grenade Launcher a single or twin shot weapon.
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