Remaining in character and its enforcement

Generic, on-topic discussion about Colonial Marines.
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Youngblood
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Remaining in character and its enforcement

Post by Youngblood » 11 Aug 2017, 15:21

I couldn't help but notice that there's a pretty big difference in how the above is handled depending on whether you're playing alien or marine; namely that questionable, borderline out of character behavior is widely tolerated by marines. In the alien faction, for a lack of a better term, players are generally expected to listen to commands and acknowledge their respective leader(s), whereas the marines (seem) free to behave however they damn well please from start to finish. This includes petty insults, childish antics during briefing, openly and publicly questioning all kinds of orders, and/or generally being completely unresponsive to orders. (Consider this, how many aliens rally almost immediately on the queen once the order is given - and how few marines actually do the same when their leader demands it? Especially during the later portions of a round.)

Now, I understand that the aliens are supposed to be of one mind and thereby forced to fall in line, so that's realistic - but how is it, that the same standards in regards to realism aren't nearly as much applied to the players that choose to roleplay a tried and tested marine? It just doesn't sit right with me, that on one side you're generally going to see somewhat cohesive comms and efforts, while on the other hand you may as well have dozens of individual chucklefucks banging their heads into walls at every turn, because why not.

To be very clear about it, my issues's not with insubordinate, rogue or unruly behavior altogether. Not when it's within reasonable boundaries, based on circumstances and not just some type of random outburst. Most of the time, however, it is not. There's a difference between, let's say a marine telling a superior to shove their orders up their ass when everything is fubar and people are dying left and right and, let's say a dozen of marines telling their commanding officers to suck it during briefing. And personally, I don't see why those marines wouldn't be told to stop acting like retards, similarly to how aliens are told to be reasonable when they disregard their queen.

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Cairath
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Re: Remaining in character and its enforcement

Post by Cairath » 11 Aug 2017, 15:26

I'll be honest, I've seen such behavior on both sides. Be it aliens spamming 'REEEEE' or marines acting akin to someone having a seizure while high off their ass on amphetamines. It is indeed disturbing, but I doubt there's much that can be done OOC about this. IC however, I do get MPs to sometimes discipline marines that go out of their way far too much in being disruptive.

It's fair to remember that behind every marine and alien is a person and that person has different needs and wants. Some enjoy immersing themselves in the character and experiencing the events through their skin while others merely want to get that over with and pepper some xenomorphs with lead.
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Re: Remaining in character and its enforcement

Post by completelynewguy » 11 Aug 2017, 15:30

I would chalk up the marines being a bunch of jackasses as a mashup of watching the Aliens scene where the marines get briefed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R800jPPenI / https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR7b6AWaMms); other pop culture depictions of the real life US Marine Corps, such as Generation Kill; and what some perceive to be as realistic but "standoffish enough to be somewhat unique" marine.

I would chalk up the xenos as being severely limited in RPing due to game mechanics and lack of imagination.

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Re: Remaining in character and its enforcement

Post by Sailor Dave » 11 Aug 2017, 16:17

How often have you played xeno? Have you really paid attention to the hivemind? They are absolutely some of the most OOC, bickering, whiny babies around. They're just as bad as the marines, and the only reason they aren't worse is because there's always the threat of a Queen Mother report over their heads, and even that doesn't stop them sometimes. Lord help you if you have a salty Queen.

As for the marines, a lot of players are only here for rooty-tooty-shooty. Anything that makes that harder for them makes them froth at the mouth, even if it wouldn't make sense. These are players, not actual marines, so they have none of that training and discipline, and most of them don't care much at all for command besides being told where to point and shoot. Usually when commanders or MPs crack down on shittery, the marines tend to revolt because they take offense at any punishment delivered, even if it didn't happen to them personally.
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Youngblood
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Re: Remaining in character and its enforcement

Post by Youngblood » 11 Aug 2017, 16:38

Cairath wrote:It's fair to remember that behind every marine and alien is a person and that person has different needs and wants. Some enjoy immersing themselves in the character and experiencing the events through their skin while others merely want to get that over with and pepper some xenomorphs with lead.
I understand that. I feel the need for the latter at times too, and when I do I sign up as a standard marine, keep quiet and do my thing. Fair enough.

What I don't do, however, is going out of my way to fuck with the system. Which is my point entirely, as an alien you're expected to play your role with reasonable leniency as to how you want to go about it, as a marine that expectation seems to go out of the window entirely.

Here's one rule in regards to my argument:
"RESPECT THE Succession and Chain of Command - If someone above you gives you an order, FOLLOW IT."

It's fairly similar to the alien rule, with the one, crucial exception that it's not enforced at all. No matter how ludicrous the offender behaves.

I simply don't understand why completely unreasonable behavior is sanctioned when you're a marine.



@Sailor Dave
I've played Alien quite a lot. Personally, I don't feel that it's as bad as with the marines. Although I would say that a good queen does make a great difference in the matter, a good Commander on the other hand doesn't seem to make as much of a difference. I understand that these are players and not actual marines. I'm really not asking them to be forced to be a picture perfect example of one, a queen Mother (of sorts) for the marine corps however would be appreciated for when things get ridiculously out of hand for little to no reason.


@Completelynewguy
I know the reference by heart, and many other popular scenes in which military personnel give lip to their superiors. At the end of the day however, they usually get their shit together when they're tried because they understand the consequences.
In any case, most of the time the attitude will be more akin to passive aggressiveness as opposed to open hostility/disrespect.

I would also make the argument, that alien players are usually truer to playing their respective role (aka roleplaying) than the marines. Which is odd, considering that you are right when you say that their options are limited.

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Re: Remaining in character and its enforcement

Post by TheMaskedMan2 » 11 Aug 2017, 16:57

You do gotta keep in mind that the rules are also a bit more strict at time for Xenos, they literally can NOT disobey the Queen. Otherwise it's a rule break. As for Marines, they can be disorderly because they are humans, though that is what the MPs are for.
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Youngblood
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Re: Remaining in character and its enforcement

Post by Youngblood » 11 Aug 2017, 17:26

TheMaskedMan2 wrote:You do gotta keep in mind that the rules are also a bit more strict at time for Xenos, they literally can NOT disobey the Queen. Otherwise it's a rule break. As for Marines, they can be disorderly because they are humans, though that is what the MPs are for.
I covered that before, I thought. The roleplay guidelines state the above rule in regards to alien behavior, just as much as they state for humans, and I quote:

"RESPECT THE Succession and Chain of Command - If someone above you gives you an order, FOLLOW IT." (I know that it's a general rule of thumb as opposed to being physically forced, but you know damn well that it's almost entirely disregarded as far as Marines go.)

The post actually covers quite a lot more than just that, but I don't see it being applied at all in game on the marine side of things. Why exactly are you stricter towards Aliens? Because the lore dictates it? Surely it would likewise dictate a similar approach to handling the marines, then? What's the reasoning behind demanding that aliens behave somewhat accordingly to their roles and reprimanding them if they do not, while marines may do the exact opposite for literally no reason at all?

It boggles my mind that there's never OOC intervention in regards to clearly OOC motivated misbehavior, especially since it's official and not some unspoken rule.


In regards to the MPs: Their job is to police in character matters. What I'm referring to is very hardly in character, unless you want to argue the point that the military would seriously hire complete retards. I'm not even exaggerating when I say that the MPs could literally detain entire squads at times and the only reason it's not a thing, is that it's just too ridiculous to follow through on.

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Re: Remaining in character and its enforcement

Post by NGGJamie » 11 Aug 2017, 22:59

Youngblood wrote:I covered that before, I thought. The roleplay guidelines state the above rule in regards to alien behavior, just as much as they state for humans, and I quote:

"RESPECT THE Succession and Chain of Command - If someone above you gives you an order, FOLLOW IT." (I know that it's a general rule of thumb as opposed to being physically forced, but you know damn well that it's almost entirely disregarded as far as Marines go.)

The post actually covers quite a lot more than just that, but I don't see it being applied at all in game on the marine side of things. Why exactly are you stricter towards Aliens? Because the lore dictates it? Surely it would likewise dictate a similar approach to handling the marines, then? What's the reasoning behind demanding that aliens behave somewhat accordingly to their roles and reprimanding them if they do not, while marines may do the exact opposite for literally no reason at all?

It boggles my mind that there's never OOC intervention in regards to clearly OOC motivated misbehavior, especially since it's official and not some unspoken rule.


In regards to the MPs: Their job is to police in character matters. What I'm referring to is very hardly in character, unless you want to argue the point that the military would seriously hire complete retards. I'm not even exaggerating when I say that the MPs could literally detain entire squads at times and the only reason it's not a thing, is that it's just too ridiculous to follow through on.
Although it doesn't happen often, insubordination does have limits on the human side. If for example, a squad is ordered to go guard the nexus but the SL has them run off into the wilderness for no discernible reason then that Squad Leader along with potentially some members of his squad are liable for OOC action if someone in command AHelps that they are going completely against orders, and the situation is bad enough that it's going overboard. Humans are given a lot of leniency because they all individually have free will, xenomorphs don't have that aside from how they carry out orders of the Queen.

There is also the fact that marines have established punitive procedures through the MPs for most cases of insubordination that don't cross lines. There's also the fact that if every marine followed orders perfectly, the game would probably not be as interesting as it is with our snowflakey pop culture icon marines we have now. When I go in-game and I see the regulars of my beloved lowpop, their characters all have distinct personalities and playstyles that tell me what kind of round I'm going to have. If everyone played the "tested and drilled marine" character, a lot of that color would fade into the background, and the marines would have almost as little personality as an individual xeno in hivemind does.

tldr: Extreme insubordination actually CAN be punished, insubordinate marines are better for the game at controlled levels because it adds flavor to each round, making it somewhat unique among the cyclical nature of the game.
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Youngblood
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Re: Remaining in character and its enforcement

Post by Youngblood » 12 Aug 2017, 16:35

NGGJamie wrote:Although it doesn't happen often, insubordination does have limits on the human side. If for example, a squad is ordered to go guard the nexus but the SL has them run off into the wilderness for no discernible reason then that Squad Leader along with potentially some members of his squad are liable for OOC action if someone in command AHelps that they are going completely against orders, and the situation is bad enough that it's going overboard. Humans are given a lot of leniency because they all individually have free will, xenomorphs don't have that aside from how they carry out orders of the Queen.

There is also the fact that marines have established punitive procedures through the MPs for most cases of insubordination that don't cross lines. There's also the fact that if every marine followed orders perfectly, the game would probably not be as interesting as it is with our snowflakey pop culture icon marines we have now. When I go in-game and I see the regulars of my beloved lowpop, their characters all have distinct personalities and playstyles that tell me what kind of round I'm going to have. If everyone played the "tested and drilled marine" character, a lot of that color would fade into the background, and the marines would have almost as little personality as an individual xeno in hivemind does.

tldr: Extreme insubordination actually CAN be punished, insubordinate marines are better for the game at controlled levels because it adds flavor to each round, making it somewhat unique among the cyclical nature of the game.

"If everyone played the "tested and drilled marine" character, a lot of that color would fade into the background, and the marines would have almost as little personality as an individual xeno in hivemind does."

I agree with that, and you do make solid points in your post in general. Although I still feel a bit misunderstood; I have no issues with different personalities, quirks and the conflicts that arise through that. My problem lies with human characters that will go absolutely mental throughout all parts of the round for little to no reason, to the point of being utterly disruptive to the round at hand. In any case, I respect what's been said here and rest my case as it doesn't seem that my thoughts on the matter are shared.

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