Feedback On New Med Changes

Generic, on-topic discussion about Colonial Marines.
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Symbiosis
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Re: Feedback On New Med Changes

Post by Symbiosis » 03 Jan 2018, 19:11

Tharinoma wrote:
03 Jan 2018, 19:07
I just played a round as doctor and I love the update. I didn't test it as a combat role yet, but medbay is much, much more fun now.

Doctor used to be "shove peri down their throat then bone surgery" for everyone, with the occasional defibbrilation when medics ran out of an important chem.

Now, every patient feels like a challenge, you're really fighting the injuries back while waiting for the critical surgery to be done. It's actually possible to lose a patient on the table now.

And from what I've seen, there aren't much more injured marines in medbay, we had 20+ players waiting for surgery in medbay before. It's just that now, they risk dying anytime, and I love it.
It was really riveting for the Xeno Players trying to break the FOB that extended back seven lines.

The change means Marines don't leave the FOB's because they -do- risk dying anytime; and surprise, players don't like to die for small things.
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Re: Feedback On New Med Changes

Post by Surrealistik » 03 Jan 2018, 19:15

Tharinoma wrote:
03 Jan 2018, 19:07
And from what I've seen, there aren't much more injured marines in medbay,
If that's actually true it probably has something to do with more marines dying and becoming unrevivable planetside due to the increased lethality of organ damage and especially IB (and/or reluctance to go back to the Almayer out of fear of surgery hell).

Also you seem thus far to be a minority in terms of enjoying the changes from a doctor's perspective.

I'm not going to say that no one loves the heightened workload or the increased diversity of surgery cases, but the fact is that most probably don't, and the 'variation' is basically an additional or different step or two during a boring rote surgical process.
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Re: Feedback On New Med Changes

Post by Simo94 » 03 Jan 2018, 19:30

Symbiosis wrote:
03 Jan 2018, 19:11
It was really riveting for the Xeno Players trying to break the FOB that extended back seven lines.

The change means Marines don't leave the FOB's because they -do- risk dying anytime; and surprise, players don't like to die for small things.
except there is one million ways to die of FF inside FOB :thumbup:
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Re: Feedback On New Med Changes

Post by Snypehunter007 » 03 Jan 2018, 20:04

After playing a round just now as a doctor and doing 30~ish surgeries, I can say that I only came across one case of someone who had a ruptured artery. The changes to the medicine didn't really affect anything for me as a doctor and there was only that one case that QC could have been useful.

I DID however come across many instances of organ damage where Peridaxon would have been useful. Due to a preference for doing all surgeries needed while I'm at it (a habit born from the Sulaco times of not having a round start supply of Peridaxon) it didn't really hurt my time or concentration to do the organ repair surgeries. While some patients did take longer, most of the times when I was "slow" at fixing someone was when I either got distracted or they had multiple bone fractures.

Though this was just my personal experience, as a doctor these changes didn't effect much for me.
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Re: Feedback On New Med Changes

Post by Dions » 03 Jan 2018, 20:17

Big problem i keep hearing are the waiting times. I've found that a shocking majority of doctors take patients into surgery based on "triage", completely ignoring the most damaged marines in favor of those with light wounds. I try to remedy this as a CMO by constantly reminding my doctors that medical this round operates on a queue (middlemost marine in the hallway is first in line) which ensures smaller wait times instead of some unnecessary triage system that leads to marines never leaving medical. Maybe have something on the wiki that tells all docs to adopt a "first come first serve" mentality, and just to generally pay more attention to the pile of broken bodies in the surgical hallway. Doing this, lowering the depletion rates on peri and IB, and decreasing the rate at which marines pop organs and break bones to resemble the pre-change rate of bone breaks may make this a less gruelling experience.
Snypehunter007 wrote:
03 Jan 2018, 20:04
After playing a round just now as a doctor and doing 30~ish surgeries, I can say that I only came across one case of someone who had a ruptured artery. The changes to the medicine didn't really affect anything for me as a doctor and there was only that one case that QC could have been useful.

I DID however come across many instances of organ damage where Peridaxon would have been useful. Due to a preference for doing all surgeries needed while I'm at it (a habit born from the Sulaco times of not having a round start supply of Peridaxon) it didn't really hurt my time or concentration to do the organ repair surgeries. While some patients did take longer, most of the times when I was "slow" at fixing someone was when I either got distracted or they had multiple bone fractures.

Though this was just my personal experience, as a doctor these changes didn't effect much for me.
All this tells me is that marines with organ damage and IB are dying planetside before they can get to medical.
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Re: Feedback On New Med Changes

Post by Snypehunter007 » 03 Jan 2018, 20:39

Dions wrote:
03 Jan 2018, 20:17
Big problem i keep hearing are the waiting times. I've found that a shocking majority of doctors take patients into surgery based on "triage", completely ignoring the most damaged marines in favor of those with light wounds. I try to remedy this as a CMO by constantly reminding my doctors that medical this round operates on a queue which ensures smaller wait times instead of some unnecessary triage system that leads to marines never leaving medical. Maybe have something on the wiki that tells all docs to adopt a "first come first serve" mentality, and just to generally pay more attention to the pile of broken bodies in the surgical hallway. Doing this, lowering the depletion rates on peri and IB, and decreasing the rate at which marines pop organs and break bones to resemble the pre-change rate of bone breaks may make this a less gruelling experience.



All this tells me is that marines with organ damage and IB are dying planetside before they can get to medical.
Wait times are usually relative to the ability of the doctor, the speed of the support staff, and the cooperation of marines who are waiting for treatment.

I don't know about people with internal bleeding not making it to medical and I also wasn't the only doctor so there could have been more, just none of them were my patients.

I know FOR SURE however that it wasn't people with organ damage dying in droves. Many people came up with organ damage, some even with critical organ failure like popped lungs, so I know for sure that the lack of Peridaxon healing organs has, at least, caused more people with organ damage to come to the ship.

In regards to wait times, I don't really know the minds of everyone I and the rest of medical treated that round but I would have liked to think we were pretty quick, we never had a very long wait time and typically cleared out most of our queues for most of the round (in which we either dealt with grabbing patients based on triage or based on whoever we grabbed first, when there only a few patients). Towards the end of the round however, the xenos boarded in the hangar and myself and another doctor who's last name was Bratton found ourselves to be the only remaining doctors in medbay. The others were either dead (as with the case of the doctors operating in OT 1 and OT 3) or were missing completely. At this point, Bratton had already been "filtering" or "prepping" patients for me most of the round and we had to go into overtime to complete the patients that our deceased colleagues left behind and the overwhelming amount of patients who were wounded from the evac of the planet and those who were wounded during the boarding.

At this point, the selection process was usually, "Whoever is at the door with their report when I finish with a patient gets to go next". On a few occasions however, I did default to a triage system of selection based on their relevant health bars.

Also, as a note, "Triage" is the assignment of degrees of urgency to wounds or illnesses to decide the order of treatment of a large number of patients or casualties. So when people grab the LEAST wounded person instead of the MOST wounded, they are likely either thinking it will be a lot quicker to heal the least wounded so that marine gets out in a time that is fast enough to not matter to the person who is heavily injured OR they aren't using a triage based system and are just grabbing the first person they see.
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Re: Feedback On New Med Changes

Post by immaspaceninja » 03 Jan 2018, 20:39

Here's what i find strange.

On 29 october of 2016 we got splints buffed
As such, splints are now able to be placed on the chest, head, and groin in addition to all the regular areas in order to reduce the need for marines to get immediate bone surgery. Splinted marines will still be hindered but combat-capable assuming the issue is only a bone break
Which was a very needed buff to marines offensive, because they were turtling the FOB in majority of the rounds.

And now we get... this? An update that, once again, makes you go shipside for surgery more often?
It does makes it harder to succeed for marine side overall. It doesn't makes it more challenging or engaging for individual players tho. Its boring.

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Re: Feedback On New Med Changes

Post by Bronimin » 03 Jan 2018, 20:53

If that was the round that I was just on, Snype, then that would have been because I was sitting at the FOB curing all of the internal bleeding before they went shipside.

From when I went down to when the FOB fell (about an hour) I observed somewhere around 15-20 marines going through the FOB needing surgery. Of those, I operated on 4 or so because they had internal bleeding and another three or four with ruptured lungs. The oxygen loss from low blood and damaged lungs kept breaking ribcages and the ribcages would keep re-breaking because the oxygen damage contributes to the damage thresholds for breaks.

Three of the marines with IB that I operated on were dead. Would have done more, but I was running low on my chloral/sophoric mixture. The surgery minigame was as boring as ever and the RNG of ghetto surgery as hilariously bad as always. Since I was using tools from the RO I didn't get to benefit from the IMS system since the surgery crate still only packs the scalpel and it might just be me, but I thought that you used to be able to quickly fix broken ribs after prying them closed by just applying gel twice? The fix' to bone repair surgery might have broken that shortcut.
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Re: Feedback On New Med Changes

Post by apophis775 » 03 Jan 2018, 20:54

We are tracking how the changes affect gameplay. If we need to make adjustments, then we will.
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Re: Feedback On New Med Changes

Post by Casany » 03 Jan 2018, 20:56

I think people assume that because this has to do with medical it affects doctors and medics much more than anyone else. But that's untrue.

This update basically makes it boring and unfun for the regular marines, who play standard. They are the ones that suffer.
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Re: Feedback On New Med Changes

Post by mazazon » 03 Jan 2018, 20:57

I can appreciate that there's an entire category of surgery that basically didn't exist before the change thanks to peri and QC, but...

Even with the very recent bump in dosage and OD, math tells me that the standard vended 10u amount will last 1 minute 40 seconds and with the max dosage (which docs will have to take time to make) about 2:20. at a metabolism of 0.1u/s. Even if they aren't being dragged all the way back from a frontline, that seems like barely enough time for them to survive the shuttle trip. Hell, the surgery itself can take longer than that.

At the very least I think peri and QC both need to last a lot longer, or people are either going to die well before they ever see a doctor or eat half a pill bottle just to stay stable.

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Re: Feedback On New Med Changes

Post by Surrealistik » 03 Jan 2018, 21:01

mazazon wrote:
03 Jan 2018, 20:57
I can appreciate that there's an entire category of surgery that basically didn't exist before the change thanks to peri and QC, but...

Even with the very recent bump in dosage and OD, math tells me that the standard vended 10u amount will last 1 minute 40 seconds and with the max dosage (which docs will have to take time to make) about 2:20. at a metabolism of 0.1u/s. Even if they aren't being dragged all the way back from a frontline, that seems like barely enough time for them to survive the shuttle trip. Hell, the surgery itself can take longer than that.

At the very least I think peri and QC both need to last a lot longer, or people are either going to die well before they ever see a doctor or eat half a pill bottle just to stay stable.
I thought the meta rate for both chems was at least 0.2U / S, which means the grace time is actually substantially less.
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Re: Feedback On New Med Changes

Post by mazazon » 03 Jan 2018, 21:06

Surrealistik wrote:
03 Jan 2018, 21:01
I thought the meta rate for both chems was at least 0.2U / S, which means the grace time is actually substantially less.
can't find it on the wiki, I was going off one of the chem guides viewtopic.php?f=94&t=5689

which lists both as 0.1u/s thought the guide does say it's out of date, if it is 0.2u/s you can just cut those times in half, easy math.

EDIT: so it'd be 50 seconds and 1:10

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Re: Feedback On New Med Changes

Post by Surrealistik » 03 Jan 2018, 21:20

mazazon wrote:
03 Jan 2018, 21:06
can't find it on the wiki, I was going off one of the chem guides viewtopic.php?f=94&t=5689

which lists both as 0.1u/s thought the guide does say it's out of date, if it is 0.2u/s you can just cut those times in half, easy math.

EDIT: so it'd be 50 seconds and 1:10
I'm not sure if it's 0.2U/sec, that's why I said at least.

You might be right about it being 0.1U/sec. I'll do some science next time I'm on.
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Re: Feedback On New Med Changes

Post by Surrealistik » 04 Jan 2018, 00:16

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Re: Feedback On New Med Changes

Post by Steelpoint » 04 Jan 2018, 00:28

The intent is to provide players with a sense of pride and accomplishment for surviving different surgeries.

----

All this aside, I'd be perfectly fine with a more lethal and baymed style medical system if Xenomorphs were held to a similar system. Seeing Marines take two slashes to the chest and need medivac, when contrasted to seeing Xenomorphs tank AT Rockets and dozens of bullets only to heal it off in thirty seconds, really makes me hate the medical system more so.

PS: Who is this catering to?
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Re: Feedback On New Med Changes

Post by 4thsurviver » 04 Jan 2018, 01:31

Surrealistik wrote:
04 Jan 2018, 00:16
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Waiting on the floor in medbay coughing up blood and passing in and out of consciousness as Sandstorm blared waiting for the Xenos to come will haunt my dreams for days to come.

I had a round where a marine tried to drag me to the LZ for medevac after I had been revived and stabilized and ended causing internal bleeding according to the medic that revived me. When I finally got to surgery I ended up dying on the OR table three times, I have never died in the OR prior to this. I'm concerned that this update has set up a situation where a comrade trying to help me has caused more damage then the xeno that actually killed me and the OR was more lethal then the battlefield that I died on twice.
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Re: Feedback On New Med Changes

Post by Karmac » 04 Jan 2018, 01:50

I just don't really see the point to this change, if it's to give doctors more work then sure good job, you did it. Good doctors will still get you fixed up and bad ones will take 30 minutes to fix a busted lung. Ultimately this changes nothing in regards to medical gameplay and feels like another pointless change to make the game more complicated for whatever reason.
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Re: Feedback On New Med Changes

Post by MrJJJ » 04 Jan 2018, 02:00

I am not even sure what to say, everything has been said by everyone else.

I was lucky in my rounds, i died or survived until the end before IB or Organ Damage could REALLY take effects on me as it actually would normally.

Just to repeat what everyone basically said so far: This update is poorly thought-out, and shouldn't have happened with how it currently is, i literally do not get the logic behind it, this doesn't affect doctors as much expect increasing workload and potential stress, but makes medics feel a bit helpless and any ground trooper that isin't a medic themselves a absolute living hell.

It makes me wonder what the hell happened to the CM that i used to know, this is...this is just bad, its almost like resin cuffs 2.0, expect instead of inescapable nests and super encouraged nest combat, its injuries that slowly kill you and can only be fixed by going to the ship, and they can happen REALLY often.

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Re: Feedback On New Med Changes

Post by fanit937 » 04 Jan 2018, 06:09

I am pretty okay with this update overall, but the worst thing, probably no one has mentioned yet, is that the situation or, even worse, CMOs might force researchers to do surgeries, more often and significant than before.

Also it'll be kinda funny to run out of tool sets and be forced to use engie tool belt, which is a extremely rare experience before.

Edit: just noticed three tiles wide corridor cool
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Re: Feedback On New Med Changes

Post by Karmac » 04 Jan 2018, 06:12

fanit937 wrote:
04 Jan 2018, 06:09
CMOs might force researchers to do surgeries
the true evil we fear

researchers being useful
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Re: Feedback On New Med Changes

Post by Kesserline » 04 Jan 2018, 09:03

Okay, I can bypass the head organ damage by creating chems :

Alkysine : 10u (OD at 30u) ==> brain
Imidazoline : 10u (OD at 30u) ==> eye
Can add some Oxyco or Trama to make the marine shutting the hell up.

Naming this "Luckyzine", because the guy has luck that he got headwound, as he can avoid organ surgery.

Welp, for chest heavy wounds..

According to changelogs, OD treshold should be at 15u.
Maybe going :
Peri 20u (OD)
Dylo 10u
QC 15u
Dex+ 15u

That way, the peri can act a little bit longer, the dylo will absorb the toxin damages. But I won't risk the OD with QC though, except if I tweak the recipe to make a last stand pill, but that won't heal shit, just forbid the marine to die for a certain amount of time.

Naming this "Welpzine", because the guy will have to regularly supplied, or going to Almayer in anycase.

Copyrights already put on those babies. Gonna test them after getting home from work.
But hell, if you have no chemist around, corpo medics will get fucked every round without any chance to bypass that update.

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Re: Feedback On New Med Changes

Post by tiredbum » 04 Jan 2018, 11:40

Haven't played the update yet, but based on what I'm seeing here, doesn't seem all that great.
Probs the worst part about it is xenos will use the meta knowledge of this to their advantage, like driving into a group of marines and just spin in a circle clicking, you'd take out pretty much an entire squad just doing that without outright killing them.
Plus side though, I will never turn around as a standard now, forward or die
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Re: Feedback On New Med Changes

Post by coroneljones » 04 Jan 2018, 13:14

Played a medical round as CMO with the update, and I have to say, dont think it changed much
Internal bleeding is easy to fix with surgery, same with organ damage

And medical isnt that boring in my opinion
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Re: Feedback On New Med Changes

Post by Surrealistik » 04 Jan 2018, 16:56

Kesserline wrote:
04 Jan 2018, 09:03
Okay, I can bypass the head organ damage by creating chems :

Alkysine : 10u (OD at 30u) ==> brain
Imidazoline : 10u (OD at 30u) ==> eye
Can add some Oxyco or Trama to make the marine shutting the hell up.

Naming this "Luckyzine", because the guy has luck that he got headwound, as he can avoid organ surgery.

Welp, for chest heavy wounds..

According to changelogs, OD treshold should be at 15u.
Maybe going :
Peri 20u (OD)
Dylo 10u
QC 15u
Dex+ 15u

That way, the peri can act a little bit longer, the dylo will absorb the toxin damages. But I won't risk the OD with QC though, except if I tweak the recipe to make a last stand pill, but that won't heal shit, just forbid the marine to die for a certain amount of time.

Naming this "Welpzine", because the guy will have to regularly supplied, or going to Almayer in anycase.

Copyrights already put on those babies. Gonna test them after getting home from work.
But hell, if you have no chemist around, corpo medics will get fucked every round without any chance to bypass that update.
Alkysine only heals genetic brain damage, not physical brain damage.

Further, Bicaridine overdoses, unless the chem has been changed, arrests and heals IB albeit slowly; 40U+ doses, or 3x 15U 'Big Bicard' doses should be effective at treating IB. Dylovene/tricord to treat toxins.

Moreover Peri overdose causes massive brute damage all over the body.

The best pill to manage IB would be bicard paired with Dex+ and anti-tox.

As for organ damage, best pill is large doses of Dex+ which is easy to mass produce + splints.

These are both viable from a mass/efficient production vantage as well.
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