Help intent to put out fire?

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CrimsonAerospace
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Re: Help intent to put out fire?

Post by CrimsonAerospace » 23 Aug 2017, 17:11

Marcus Jackson wrote:That is still not the main issue, these are military grade weapons, and the incinerator fires napalm, so if you REALLY want this then sure, 3 pats and the fire goes out... but the person doing it better lose a large chunk of health in exchange. Marines can only use extinguishers to effectively put fires out on others, this makes sense both in cannon and in game-play because napalm is fucking dangerous and hard to get rid of, but xenos should NOT have the ability to pat each-other out, because not only does it automatically unbalance everything despite your claims to the contrary, it also makes no sense that napalm can be put out by another (non Ravager) xeno just using it's hands to pat them down and not receive any sort of major damage.

The big problem is that Fehweh and Apop have huge boners for xenos, so any "to-do" updates for marines are going to not actually be all that useful, the most recent useful one we had was helmets being updated but in trade off they messed with almost all of the gun locker and your personal inventory slots so now even with macros it takes like 4 clicks just to fucking reload... marines get shit on, that's how it's been, that's how it's probably gonna stay, so unfortunately unless you are putting in the clause to bring back the original incinerator and give the incendiary rounds and bombs a huge boost, this is still at it's core a BALANCING issue.

And if we are not demanding the caveat of updating the flame-weapons then of course, they will accept this suggestion almost immediately because it benefits the "poor, weak, and downtrodden xeno players", and gives the shaft to marines, despite it making no real sense.

W o a h.

Just for the record,

*Xenos have been, are, and will forever be, more powerful than Marines, that's a given, so complaining about the win rate doesn't matter. Winning counts for jack shit on CM. We don't keep statistics for player wins. We don't award the team who wins.

*I love the flamethrower, and flame weapons in general, but they're not as BIG of a piece of equipment as we make 'em out to be. they're helpful against Crushers sure, but as they are right, Marines have adapted from using them. We're fine for the moment.
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Re: Help intent to put out fire?

Post by Marcus Jackson » 23 Aug 2017, 20:52

CrimsonAerospace wrote:W o a h.

Just for the record,

*Xenos have been, are, and will forever be, more powerful than Marines, that's a given, so complaining about the win rate doesn't matter. Winning counts for jack shit on CM. We don't keep statistics for player wins. We don't award the team who wins.

*I love the flamethrower, and flame weapons in general, but they're not as BIG of a piece of equipment as we make 'em out to be. they're helpful against Crushers sure, but as they are right, Marines have adapted from using them. We're fine for the moment.
I'm not saying xenos should be less powerful compared to marines, if you had read what I said about marines getting shit on, that's the natural state of a highpop game and I don't desire that to change, and it's less about the total win rate, and rather more about the ease of which the win is achieved. By giving the xenos the ability to put out the fire they really shouldn't be able to put out, this goes from simply trying to strike a balance, to nullifying a section of equipment and ammo entirely. And also doesn't really make sense anyway, because they are trying to pat-out napalm with their hands.

They used to be a significant piece to a squad's success/survival but are being phased out by simple bullet flooding from over-modded rifles. I'm not saying make a squad's chances hinge on a single incinerator, but taking it back to it's original effectiveness would be better if the "3pat-pat-down" becomes a thing in-order to at least keep them form removing the flame-weapons and ammo later on when people complain about it taking up locker/vendor space.
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Re: Help intent to put out fire?

Post by solidfury7 » 24 Aug 2017, 10:00

This suggestion does not make sense lore wise nor does it provide much other than making the flamer even weaker.

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Re: Help intent to put out fire?

Post by Habalabam » 25 Aug 2017, 09:11

I'm not claiming that it wouldn't unbalance things if it was implemented NOW. The section you quoted makes that abundantly clear.

I don't really see how canon, or believable, it is for a single sniper incendiary round hitting a large xeno (like a boiler) to behave like it got engulfed close range by future tech napalm flamethrower.

Whether or not full fledged napalm should be implemented is a different story. I wouldn't mind if it did. I suspect eg a napalm grenade would make for some mean friendly fire if dropped or botched throw.

If you are upset with the suggestion, as many seem to be, either swallow it or take it out on me. Don't diss the hard working devs.

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Re: Help intent to put out fire?

Post by tenshar » 25 Aug 2017, 17:09

Your talking about napalm..this shit doesn't just go out because someone smacked it a few times, hell whoever was dumb enough to try in the first place now has hands covered in the stuff burning as well. The fact is this is no matter how you word it or justify it a straight up gutting of the use of any flame weapon, be it fire bullets, napalm grenades, sniper fire rounds, the incinerator. So no, hell no, double hell no. You would with one action make 4 major factors in the alien vs marine meta useless, and without a counter balance bringing back the old high damage fire rate this would cripple a lot of defenses built around alien advancement suppression, of which napalm is a major part of. On top of this you already get a queen who is immune to napalm which cannon wise makes no sense. ((from the wiki in describing queens and fire "They have also been seen to survive being almost totally enveloped by fire,[1] although prolonged exposure to heat and flame is eventually fatal")) And this is fire, napalm burns much much hotter.

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Re: Help intent to put out fire?

Post by Hulkamania » 13 Sep 2017, 16:38

solidfury7 wrote:
24 Aug 2017, 10:00
This suggestion does not make sense lore wise nor does it provide much other than making the flamer even weaker.

-1
I think it provides a good bit more than the flamer being weaker. There ARE scenarios I've seen plenty of times where a xeno gets flamed, makes it back to weeds, maybe even resists one time, then goes into crit and can do nothing about it. Other xenos can ALSO do nothing about it, despite them successfully getting back to safety and trying to put the flame out.

From a game design standpoint it's just exceedingly frustrating to die when you've already escaped danger. Does it make sense for them to die? Maybe. Is it fun? Not at all. The marine who did the flaming won't even get to see that he killed a xeno, the xeno will feel overly frustrated because they died a somewhat cheap death, and no real fun comes out of the experience.

It would be a buff to xenos which isn't something that is necessarily needed, but it would be a buff to Fun™ and at the end of the day, that's what we join the damn server for in the first place.
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Re: Help intent to put out fire?

Post by Humorcet » 13 Sep 2017, 18:18

Hulkamania wrote:
13 Sep 2017, 16:38
I think it provides a good bit more than the flamer being weaker. There ARE scenarios I've seen plenty of times where a xeno gets flamed, makes it back to weeds, maybe even resists one time, then goes into crit and can do nothing about it. Other xenos can ALSO do nothing about it, despite them successfully getting back to safety and trying to put the flame out.

From a game design standpoint it's just exceedingly frustrating to die when you've already escaped danger. Does it make sense for them to die? Maybe. Is it fun? Not at all. The marine who did the flaming won't even get to see that he killed a xeno, the xeno will feel overly frustrated because they died a somewhat cheap death, and no real fun comes out of the experience.

It would be a buff to xenos which isn't something that is necessarily needed, but it would be a buff to Fun™ and at the end of the day, that's what we join the damn server for in the first place.
It wouldn't buff the fun for marines, it would make the flamer not fun to use because you would know it will never kill anything ever.

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Re: Help intent to put out fire?

Post by Crab_Spider » 13 Sep 2017, 18:33

Humorcet wrote:
13 Sep 2017, 18:18
It wouldn't buff the fun for marines, it would make the flamer not fun to use because you would know it will never kill anything ever.

I've been killed by a flamethrower as an Elite Hunter. Your point is that you've never seen someone kill anything with a flamethrower, making your argument invalid as it's coming from confirmation bias.
You will never be as bad as the baldie who picked up a tactical shotgun while a hunter was pouncing on top of a CMO for 4 seconds, with his only response being to pace around before being decap'd by said hunter. You are not Brett Kimple, and you never will be. You are not the reason why I regular MP.

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Re: Help intent to put out fire?

Post by Marcus Jackson » 14 Sep 2017, 02:00

Crab_Spider wrote:
13 Sep 2017, 18:33
I've been killed by a flamethrower as an Elite Hunter. Your point is that you've never seen someone kill anything with a flamethrower, making your argument invalid as it's coming from confirmation bias.
I've seen plenty of xenos die from a flame thrower, and can only imagine the amount of unseen deaths that happen with it, so I agree that argument is pretty stupid on a basic level.

But you are still ignoring the fact that it would make Marines less fun to play, because there is yet another thing that was buffed or nerfed in order to accommodate the xenos. And yes, it becomes significantly less fun when you see all the squad SLs throw out the flamers and tanks knowing no one will ever use them because their entire purpose basically does not exist after that, so how is it fun to know that you've got shit in your armories that are basically useless?

And again Hulkamania, it makes no sense in the lore or the game-play to be able to pat-down fires with your bare hands, much less military-grade napalm. At the very least the one patting the xeno out should lose a significant portion of health to do so, considering that marines can't just walk up to each other and pat-out acid burns, but that is not what the argument is presenting so no, it still is a bad idea.
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Re: Help intent to put out fire?

Post by Nyeshivuu » 14 Sep 2017, 04:10

Xenos already have enough get out of jail free cards, they don't need another. And getting critted while on fire and dying is kinda the point of it, and even when they do get critted most of the time when i see xenos get set on fire they live because of ez mode warding. This would make the flamethrower absolutely fucking useless. What the flamethrower really needs is a buff.
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Re: Help intent to put out fire?

Post by Habalabam » 14 Sep 2017, 04:24

And, it may only take two sniper shots to kill a boiler, which is T3, from beyond visual range. You set the boiler on fire with the first shot and then wait for it to waddle back while taking fire damage and start resisting. The timing is known and inevitable. All you need is to advance five spaces and get the second shot while it is resisting to put out the fire. Shoot twice for good measure.

Flamethrowers should be powerful, yes, but should incendiary bullets be implemented the same way? Setting a whole T3 xeno bursting in flames as if it was napalmed?

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Re: Help intent to put out fire?

Post by Marcus Jackson » 14 Sep 2017, 10:59

Habalabam wrote:
14 Sep 2017, 04:24
And, it may only take two sniper shots to kill a boiler, which is T3, from beyond visual range. You set the boiler on fire with the first shot and then wait for it to waddle back while taking fire damage and start resisting. The timing is known and inevitable. All you need is to advance five spaces and get the second shot while it is resisting to put out the fire. Shoot twice for good measure.

Flamethrowers should be powerful, yes, but should incendiary bullets be implemented the same way? Setting a whole T3 xeno bursting in flames as if it was napalmed?
You are complaining that a sniper can still snipe something while using special ammo, and still do a high amount of damage? I'm sorry but that's just stupid, because the incendiary rounds do less damage than any fire based explosives or the flamethrower, the sniper has to actually get a decent line of fire, the target has to be something stationary like a Boiler (literally the only thing that is the sniper's main prey), and a Boiler shouldn't be in an area without weeds in the first place, but besides... all they have to do is resist twice and gtfo while some of the lower tiers block some shots, you know, like they are supposed to do.

Also, Boilers are made of toilet paper in terms of defenses even at the higher levels, so I really don't know what you are expecting when possibly the squishiest T3 is getting shot at other than death, special ammo or not.
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Re: Help intent to put out fire?

Post by Heckenshutze » 14 Sep 2017, 12:16

The fact that xenomorphs lore-wise are like paper compared to the Pulse Rifle ammo makes this suggestion just bad, the game is good the way it is currently. Remember how things work here, if a party gets a buff the other party gets something to somehow counter it. Making a weapon useless isn't practical.
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Re: Help intent to put out fire?

Post by Hulkamania » 14 Sep 2017, 14:41

Heckenshutze wrote:
14 Sep 2017, 12:16
The fact that xenomorphs lore-wise are like paper compared to the Pulse Rifle ammo makes this suggestion just bad, the game is good the way it is currently. Remember how things work here, if a party gets a buff the other party gets something to somehow counter it. Making a weapon useless isn't practical.
I don't believe that to be the philosophy. Xenos and marines get small nerfs and buffs all the time without giving an equivalent to the other side. By this logic the marine "buff" would be that flames stick to xenos and the xeno "counter" would be that another xeno could assist in putting out said flame.

Also the argument that you can't "pat out fire" is like saying "You can't roll around on the ground to put out fire" so you might as well not be able to resist at all.

What part of a giant death machine like a xeno COULDN'T roll their friend around for them?
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Re: Help intent to put out fire?

Post by Heckenshutze » 14 Sep 2017, 14:49

Hulkamania wrote:
14 Sep 2017, 14:41
I don't believe that to be the philosophy. Xenos and marines get small nerfs and buffs all the time without giving an equivalent to the other side. By this logic the marine "buff" would be that flames stick to xenos and the xeno "counter" would be that another xeno could assist in putting out said flame.

Also the argument that you can't "pat out fire" is like saying "You can't roll around on the ground to put out fire" so you might as well not be able to resist at all.

What part of a giant death machine like a xeno COULDN'T roll their friend around for them?
Because they have no mind nor soul, they just rush foward and attack, leaping over the corpses of their sisters. They're slaves to the Queen's desires and neither the Queen cares if a xeno is burning alive. They're the most expendable troop on the universe, more than marines. The whole reason of the incinerator is to force xenos to resist and roll, making them unable to move for a short time so another marine can shoot it.

It's our counter to the Xeno neurotoxic stunlock.
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Re: Help intent to put out fire?

Post by Sir Lordington » 14 Sep 2017, 15:22

So, apparently, the flamer and the sniper are a separate issue. Let's address them separately then.

First, the sniper. Yes, it can kill boilers from outside visual range. That is why it's a sniper. If you're complaining that snipers can snipe the squishiest T3 caste, which, by the way, is also a long range caste... Well, I don't know what to say to you beyond deal with it. That is what snipers are for, eliminating priority targets from outside their range. Have weenies block shots. Position yourself better.

Flamers and other incendiary weapons. As it has been stated before, if you die from the flames you've been shot a bunch of times with something else. If you get caught with incendiaries AND a bunch of normal fire, you should die. If you get to weeds, get critted and die, you should've pulled out earlier. Marines shouldn't have to rely on grenades to stun a xeno. Fire is good because it forces you to make a choice, do I resist here and risk marines catching up and shooting me to pieces, or do I get further back and risk critting before I can put it out? Furthermore, as it stands, it acts as a great deterrent. If there's incendiary's you'll be more reluctant to jump into a group of marines, as getting lit could mean death even if you succesfully escape. If this is implemented this risk would be much lower and therefore incendiary weaponry wouldn't be as good at deterring dives, and that's without even taking into account that less marines would use it since it's less effective, therefore you'll have even less protection against diving.
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Re: Help intent to put out fire?

Post by Marcus Jackson » 15 Sep 2017, 02:29

Sir Lordington wrote:
14 Sep 2017, 15:22
So, apparently, the flamer and the sniper are a separate issue. Let's address them separately then.

First, the sniper. Yes, it can kill boilers from outside visual range. That is why it's a sniper. If you're complaining that snipers can snipe the squishiest T3 caste, which, by the way, is also a long range caste... Well, I don't know what to say to you beyond deal with it. That is what snipers are for, eliminating priority targets from outside their range. Have weenies block shots. Position yourself better.

Flamers and other incendiary weapons. As it has been stated before, if you die from the flames you've been shot a bunch of times with something else. If you get caught with incendiaries AND a bunch of normal fire, you should die. If you get to weeds, get critted and die, you should've pulled out earlier. Marines shouldn't have to rely on grenades to stun a xeno. Fire is good because it forces you to make a choice, do I resist here and risk marines catching up and shooting me to pieces, or do I get further back and risk critting before I can put it out? Furthermore, as it stands, it acts as a great deterrent. If there's incendiary's you'll be more reluctant to jump into a group of marines, as getting lit could mean death even if you succesfully escape. If this is implemented this risk would be much lower and therefore incendiary weaponry wouldn't be as good at deterring dives, and that's without even taking into account that less marines would use it since it's less effective, therefore you'll have even less protection against diving.
Honestly I'm not sure even a clear point such as this will be understood by the supporters at this point considering the last six times it was either hand-waved/ignored or "argued" out of reliance.
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Re: Help intent to put out fire?

Post by Nyeshivuu » 15 Sep 2017, 03:11

Basically xeno players mad that there is the actual threat of death in their game
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Re: Help intent to put out fire?

Post by Marcus Jackson » 15 Sep 2017, 14:39

Nyeshivuu wrote:
15 Sep 2017, 03:11
Basically xeno players mad that there is the actual threat of death in their game
Basically yeah :|
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Re: Help intent to put out fire?

Post by Tidomann » 16 Sep 2017, 10:39

This already exists in the form of warding pheromones and recovery pheromones :devil:

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Re: Help intent to put out fire?

Post by Marcus Jackson » 16 Sep 2017, 11:15

Tidomann wrote:
16 Sep 2017, 10:39
This already exists in the form of warding pheromones and recovery pheromones :devil:

Drones confirmed fire extinguishers
Yeah, good luck getting someone to be smart enough to switch their pheromones for that, you'd have a better chance just rushing a turret.
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