Xeno acid discussion

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Stripetail
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Xeno acid discussion

Post by Stripetail » 21 Aug 2017, 01:21

I'm genuinely curious to see what others think of the ability of some xeno castes to dissolve structures.

Lately I've been seeing an increase in the amount of xenos that run up with the queen when she's going in to screech, building acid up on barricades only to pull back and wait out of the line of fire until the entire frontline of the marine fortification has melted to just walk in and attack them before they can rebuild/restructure it. I've also seen before marines even drop that drones and spitters (mainly on LV-624) where drones and spitters will run about the colony melting holes in nexus and hydro to make it more difficult to defend or build up for the marines.

To me this seems cheesy, to walk away from a FOB or building that's been built up as a fall back point only to come back within a minute to find weak acid on an entire line of the defenses.. especially plasteel ones, only to hear a drone or spitter off in the darkness spamming roar.

Whats everyone's thoughts on this, and do you have tips on combating it?
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Re: Xeno acid discussion

Post by CrimsonAerospace » 21 Aug 2017, 01:46

Well, personally I think it's a bit cheesy to build defenses when Spitters can just run up and melt them, personally.

And at the moment, there IS no way to combat it, besides NOT getting stunned and making sure they don't get near. Since Research was gutted, we no longer have the super useful thing that removes acid from walls and barricades anymore.
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Re: Xeno acid discussion

Post by immaspaceninja » 21 Aug 2017, 03:12

It is not as bad as it was.
Atleast my suggestion about giving a small delay before applying acid to structures got accepted, because before that, aliens used to run up to baricades even without queen screech and just use their macro to spam the whole line of cades with acid, which only took 1 second to do. It was especially annoying in whiskey outpost, where spitting caste aliens were acting like kamikaze just to empty their plasma sack on your defences.

Now its more bearable. If you got a line of baricades or it's part acided, you can make a few plasteel baricades somewhere behind, in safety, and then pull them on the place of melted baricades without risking your life too much. Maybe you'll even be in time to deconstruct the baricade covered in acid to recover some more metal.

So yeah, compared to other stuff, like crusher tunneling rocks and breaching walls instantly - its kind of okay.
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Re: Xeno acid discussion

Post by Hulkamania » 12 Sep 2017, 12:26

It's annoying that there is no counterplay. When you're holding out a room it sucks to see the sprite appear on the very wall you're hiding behind, knowing that death comes.

But that's kind of lore-appropriate. Also it's a valid strategy, marines are pretty annoying to fight once they're properly entrenched and acid is just one of the few tools aliens have to combat it. If you're concerned about your defenses getting acid on them, guard your defenses!

Also another reason getting extra metal is always preferred, you can patch up holes in the line.
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Re: Xeno acid discussion

Post by Stripetail » 12 Sep 2017, 20:10

Hulkamania wrote:
12 Sep 2017, 12:26
It's annoying that there is no counterplay. When you're holding out a room it sucks to see the sprite appear on the very wall you're hiding behind, knowing that death comes.

But that's kind of lore-appropriate. Also it's a valid strategy, marines are pretty annoying to fight once they're properly entrenched and acid is just one of the few tools aliens have to combat it. If you're concerned about your defenses getting acid on them, guard your defenses!

Also another reason getting extra metal is always preferred, you can patch up holes in the line.
The main reason I brought this discussion up was that stray spitters/sentinels/drones could simply walk up to a barricade/wall/reinforced wall/plasteel barricade/ etc.

Having played Xeno many times, I can say that I've never had issues busting into a marine stronghold, boilers are absolutely the most critical caste for sieges, they offer cover for aliens to push up and attack structures, they have a chance to hit within a base and cause mass panic with the spreading cloud of gas, and they can melt flanking positions into marine fortifications.

The issue I've encountered with alien acid is how cheesy it is for aliens to apply acid to a structure and no matter the strength of the acid, that structure will fall given time unless it is literally wrenched up and moved. A single spitter can even stroll up to a barricade and stunlock a marine inside with neuro long enough to place acid on a barricade and run away to weeds to regen.

Aciding is also silent, it doesn't give marines a warning that it's being done to their barricades. This means they can patrol a section of their base, then return to find it entirely coated in acid in just a few minutes and they'd have had no clue they were under attack. At least with hunters/runners slashing barricades you can hear it going down and have the opportunity to respond.
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Re: Xeno acid discussion

Post by Hulkamania » 13 Sep 2017, 16:28

JKincaid wrote:
12 Sep 2017, 20:10
The main reason I brought this discussion up was that stray spitters/sentinels/drones could simply walk up to a barricade/wall/reinforced wall/plasteel barricade/ etc.

Having played Xeno many times, I can say that I've never had issues busting into a marine stronghold, boilers are absolutely the most critical caste for sieges, they offer cover for aliens to push up and attack structures, they have a chance to hit within a base and cause mass panic with the spreading cloud of gas, and they can melt flanking positions into marine fortifications.

The issue I've encountered with alien acid is how cheesy it is for aliens to apply acid to a structure and no matter the strength of the acid, that structure will fall given time unless it is literally wrenched up and moved. A single spitter can even stroll up to a barricade and stunlock a marine inside with neuro long enough to place acid on a barricade and run away to weeds to regen.

Aciding is also silent, it doesn't give marines a warning that it's being done to their barricades. This means they can patrol a section of their base, then return to find it entirely coated in acid in just a few minutes and they'd have had no clue they were under attack. At least with hunters/runners slashing barricades you can hear it going down and have the opportunity to respond.
I mean you make a good point about the spitter stunlock thing, but keep in mind if a marine is alone they've probably lost regardless of what the situation is. Applying acid to a structure takes time, not a whole lot, but it takes time. If a spitter can run up, apply acid and get out without a marine blasting them, then they either have backup (which means it's acceptable imo) or the marines aren't defending in the first place (also acceptable)

In the case of some cheese strat where a spitter could instantly apply acid to something and leave, that would be understandably imbalanced but I think as it stands now they're using their various skills to work together as a team to get through some tough structures which is totally okay.
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Re: Xeno acid discussion

Post by Stripetail » 13 Sep 2017, 20:58

Hulkamania wrote:
13 Sep 2017, 16:28
I mean you make a good point about the spitter stunlock thing, but keep in mind if a marine is alone they've probably lost regardless of what the situation is. Applying acid to a structure takes time, not a whole lot, but it takes time. If a spitter can run up, apply acid and get out without a marine blasting them, then they either have backup (which means it's acceptable imo) or the marines aren't defending in the first place (also acceptable)

In the case of some cheese strat where a spitter could instantly apply acid to something and leave, that would be understandably imbalanced but I think as it stands now they're using their various skills to work together as a team to get through some tough structures which is totally okay.
In the case of alien queens using screech and boilers/other aciding structures to dissolve this could be considered acting as a team and using various skills. In the case of a single spitter/drone/sentinel going around and placing acid on multiple structures because they simply have the ability to literally see their enemy's movements and find any weak point with little fear of being cut off or flanked, or being punished for overextending this is cheesy. I feel at the very least it should be acceptable to have to apply acid more than a single time to fully remove a structure from the round, if that were the case marines would have a warning that they're being harassed by a creature and if they don't sure up their defenses they'll lose swaths of land, instead of stepping away, and coming back to find themselves the victims of Spitter (---) Who knows that acid is a guaranteed and silent way of at least hampering the marines considerably, and that they can use it over clawing structures because it's both silent and guaranteed to make the marines have to deal with the effect.

You say it takes time to place acid but let's be entirely honest, it's hardly any time. With the mobility that aliens have you can simply skirt around the base until you find a spot where marines aren't at right at that moment, place acid and sprint away. They won't even know you've done it until they come across the structure, and then they need to contact an engineer if they have one, hope they get there before the structure is dissolved, and pull more people to defend the now gaping hole in their defenses, leaving you guessed it, another hole in their defenses wherever they pulled their units from.

The issue isn't that they can acid structures, it's that there's little counterplay besides throw more bodies at it or a turret, both critical things on the battlefield.
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Re: Xeno acid discussion

Post by Polari » 04 Oct 2017, 10:45

The implementatiom of corssoive acid being a timed action is quite nice, and i feel that if you gave runners the ability to use spit, at the cost of maybe standing still for about 30 seconds, it would seem a bit cheesy but reasonable. I feel that where it is now is perfect.
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Re: Xeno acid discussion

Post by HKO2006 » 23 Oct 2017, 10:08

Boiler's cover are even better now, always the same pattern plus non lethal gas got cloud size buff, giving greater cover and pacify more marine threats both in and outside the cloud.
Acid also got buffed, middle click 3 cades in one go then get out before cloud disperse. (vs right click -> select one by one)

Although melting takes time, it's only like 5 min or so and aliens can definitely wait it out plus they just melt other cades/walls while waiting. Then half of the FOB will be melted soon enough.
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