Commander Gage Baldwin Battlefield Execution for insuboordination

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msherman94
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Commander Gage Baldwin Battlefield Execution for insuboordination

Post by msherman94 » 26 Dec 2017, 06:01

Your Byond Key: msherman94

Your Character Name: Michael Sherman

Accused Byond Key(if known):

Character Name: Cmd Gage Baldwin

Approximate time and date of the incident (Central US Time for fastest results): 12/26/2017 0435C Central US Time

What rule(s) were broken: None, however abuse of the Battlefield Execution authority was present

Description of the incident: I was trying to thermite into the CL office to try to retrieve the CL's body, which I had been working on for a while. The commander met me in the CL entrance and asked me to explain. I asked what he wanted me to explain, and he responded to explain as to why I was not in the CIC when he had ordered me to be 10 minutes ago. I had not seen that order. Looking back, he had given it on the medical channel and I had not seen it. I told him I hadn't heard, and he proceeded to insult me saying that if I'd used my head and wasn't an idiot, then I would have been in the CIC already. He said the MPs should have been the ones handling it, however we had no active MPs. After he insulted me, I ICly got upset at him, and told him to shove his orders up his ass since he had been asleep the entire mission and all the Marines were dead because we didn't have proper leadership. He asked me, essentially, to repeat myself, to which I said "you heard me". He then pulled his pistol out and shot me to death.

I had not been familiar with the Battlefield execution rule at the time, and ahelped for a reference. After reading that section of Marine Law I explained to the admin who responded, Amaxin, that I believe this to be an abuse of the BE authority, since we were in private and I was just roleplaying an SO who had been on mission for four hours and felt abandoned by their command. He told me that my best course of action if I thought it was out of line would be a player complaint.

The dispute could have easily been solved with a few lines of conversation, or really any display of leadership whatsoever. To instead merely gun me down was, in my opinion, completely out of line and against the intent of the Battlefield Execution rule, considering that rule specifies "This is similar to the "Rule 0" rule which applies to admins - you're able to do this, but it's much better not to, since you are subject to the consequences of your actions and may be removed from the whitelist if your reasons aren't acceptable."

Evidence (screenshots, logs, etc): I have removed unrelated messages
LT Michael Sherman says, "MT, meet me at CL office please."
LT Michael Sherman [Engi (SO)] says, "MT, meet me at CL office please."
Gage Baldwin points to Michael Sherman
LT Michael Sherman asks, "MT do you read?"
LT Michael Sherman [Engi (SO)] asks, "MT do you read?"
CDR Gage Baldwin says, "Tell me."
TSGT Ludvigs Von Storm [Engi (MT)] says, "I am very busy with CIC POWER"
LT Michael Sherman asks, "Sir?"
CDR Gage Baldwin asks, "Why exactly are you still here when I've told you roughly ten minutes ago to report to the CIC?"
LT Michael Sherman says, "Never heard that order, sir."
CDR Gage Baldwin asks, "And you never thought to use your goddamn head?"
LT Michael Sherman says, "I thought we need to recover the CL's body. That is using my head."
CDR Gage Baldwin says, "That's called being an idiot, we have an operation to run."
CDR Gage Baldwin says, "Leave trivial affairs to the MPs."
LT Michael Sherman says, "Sir, you're showing up four hours late. You can shove it up your ass."
CDR Gage Baldwin asks, "What?"
CDR Gage Baldwin glares.
LT Michael Sherman says, "This mission is already a failure, because you weren't here to lead."
LT Michael Sherman says, "You heard me."
CDR Gage Baldwin says, "I see."
Gage Baldwin fires the Mateba autorevolver special point blank at Michael Sherman!
Gage Baldwin fires the Mateba autorevolver special!
You are hit by the high-impact revolver bullet in the head!
Your face becomes unrecognizible mangled mess!
Something feels like it shattered in your head!
LT Michael Sherman screams!
Your head hurts badly.
Gage Baldwin fires the Mateba autorevolver special point blank at Unknown (as Michael Sherman)!
Gage Baldwin fires the Mateba autorevolver special!
You are hit by the high-impact revolver bullet in the head!
Something inside your head hurts a lot.
The high-impact revolver bullet shrapnel sticks in the wound!
LT Unknown (as Michael Sherman) screams!
You scream in pain as the impact sends shrapnel into the wound!
Gage Baldwin fires the Mateba autorevolver special point blank at Unknown (as Michael Sherman)!
Gage Baldwin fires the Mateba autorevolver special!
You are hit by the high-impact revolver bullet in the head!
You feel something rip in your chest!
Something feels like it shattered in your chest!
LT Unknown (as Michael Sherman) screams!
... You can almost hear someone talking ...
... You can almost hear someone talking ...
... You can almost hear someone talking ...
... You can almost hear someone talking ...

How you would punish the accused: I question their suitability to be white-listed for the Commander role. If this is an isolated incident then maybe they should be warned, or temporarily banned from the role, or maybe I'm even completely wrong about it being an abuse of power, in which case I'd appreciate being told as much. If this is part of a pattern, or the admins believe it is bad enough, I believe they should be removed from the whitelist.

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Re: Commander Gage Baldwin Battlefield Execution for insuboordination

Post by msherman94 » 26 Dec 2017, 06:36

Having thought on it a little more, I see absolutely no way in which the BE was justified over merely having a conversation. I said two sentences which were moderately out of line, in private. I wasn't questioning his authority in front of the crew, he had insulted me multiple times, and my character was understandably near the end of their rope after hours of mental exertion and watching his Marines get slaughtered wholesale.

The BE was, in my opinion, a gross abuse of power. I do not think this player should be trusted with that authority anymore.

I fully believe this player should be removed from the commander whitelist.

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Re: Commander Gage Baldwin Battlefield Execution for insuboordination

Post by NescauComToddy » 26 Dec 2017, 07:27

That example of battlefield execution that occurred would not be acceptable, at least by my standards and understanding of BE's mechanics.

I believe that you had not disobeyed or caused problems for the commander before you did not unintentionally follow his order to go to the CiC, since you did not see the message. So, if that is the case, I believe the commander was cynical in making this decision.

Assuming you had not caused confusion before this accident, you were by no means a threat to the success of the operation.
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Re: Commander Gage Baldwin Battlefield Execution for insuboordination

Post by Wubs4Scrubs » 26 Dec 2017, 07:47

You can shove it up your ass.
That alone is grounds for insubordination, something the CO can certainly execute you for. If you're so much as insulting the CO over comms he can have you executed no questions asked, I'm not sure why everyone thinks this instance warrants punishment given that the LT was not only disobeying orders, but also disrespected the CO to his face. If you look at past rulings you can see that even saying something along the lines of "Fuck you" to the CO over comms is enough to warrant execution.

Regardless of what your opinion is on BEs, I think that this BE was justified given the rules. Had the CO executed him for simply not seeing the original orders, sure I could see how a BE for something that trivial would be ridiculous. However when you combine not following orders with insubordination I believe the CO had every right to kill Sherman.
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Re: Commander Gage Baldwin Battlefield Execution for insuboordination

Post by NescauComToddy » 26 Dec 2017, 08:22

► Show Spoiler
EDIT: After assessing the situation more cautiously, I believe that, in fact, this BE was justified, however much I think it was unnecessary and misused.

The lieutenant would have been executed for having refused and at the same time disrespected the commander in telling him to stick his order in his ass. This execution was a completely unnecessary thing to do, however, justified.

I admit that I expect more role-play and a higher level of maturity and indulgence from the whitelist players, especially in making decisions related to their roles, but this is not the subject being discussed here and therefore we should only analyze whether the execution was valid or not, leaving that matter to future discussions.

I understood now what actually happened and therefore believe that Imperator acted correctly.
Last edited by NescauComToddy on 26 Dec 2017, 08:55, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Commander Gage Baldwin Battlefield Execution for insuboordination

Post by Imperator_Titan » 26 Dec 2017, 08:48

Alright here's my take on things. I wake up far into the round (no idea how far but it was definitely past 2 hours) and I come up to the CIC to realize that an assault has failed and that all marines have fallen back to the FOB. I then find out that we've been fighting some technologically advanced humanoids too, one of which we had killed and recovered intact. Mind you, I only find my XO and one of my SOs in the CIC and had never actually seen you around. I hear that you're planning on thermiting into the liaison's office since he's dead inside (Reported multiple times) and I order you to report to the CIC. I planned on having the MPs handle the entire thing only to find out that there was only the CMP whom had gone SSD and was cryo'd, leaving me with nobody left. You then come to the liaison's office and I also move there, asking you to explain yourself. You said that you didn't hear my first order but ICly, I took it as an excuse to do what you were currently doing and was more annoyed at that fact. I was planning on leaving it there with a warning and was on my way out when suddenly, you decided to respond with insulting me roughly twice. I was going to detain you but then realized that none of my MPs were active and I couldn't exactly leave without reprimanding you in some way. All of this happened during the FOB defense where the SO in question should've been actively assisting instead of wandering around without leave.

Since you decided to spend your entire time from what I had seen melting into the liaison's office and not once come into the CIC to greet me or otherwise and I had only heard and seen you on comms, and the fact that I had no MPs to deal with you and couldn't detain you myself, and finally the fact that you would more than likely continue to disrupt order in the CIC judging by the way you were actively insulting me, straight at my face, I decided to field execute you, simple as that.

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Re: Commander Gage Baldwin Battlefield Execution for insuboordination

Post by Symbiosis » 26 Dec 2017, 09:30

Disobeying the Commanders orders, claiming you "didn't hear his order" then insulting the CO rather than accepting immediate fault and moving to the CIC is what got you killed.

Disobey the Commander or interfere with his operation and you stand the risk of being BE'ed.

The Commander does not exist for you to complain and lay blame at. You respect the rank, not the player. Failure to do so can result in a BE. After reading what you submitted, even if he had just now told you to go to the CIC... the moment you give the CO shit is the moment you accept the risk of your actions.
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Re: Commander Gage Baldwin Battlefield Execution for insuboordination

Post by solidfury7 » 26 Dec 2017, 09:45

This one is rather iffy.

Reaching for a BE should be when someone threatens your command, not when someone insults you.

This could have been EASILY dealt with by the Military Police, they were shipside afterall.
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Re: Commander Gage Baldwin Battlefield Execution for insuboordination

Post by Wubs4Scrubs » 26 Dec 2017, 09:53

solidfury7 wrote:
26 Dec 2017, 09:45
This one is rather iffy.

Reaching for a BE should be when someone threatens your command, not when someone insults you.

This could have been EASILY dealt with by the Military Police, they were shipside afterall.
I think it can be fairly argued that having a Staff Officer who is telling his CO to "Shove it up his ass." among other insults is a credible threat to the command structure. If you don't show respect to the CO they can't be sure that you'll respect their orders and may undermine them in the future.
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Re: Commander Gage Baldwin Battlefield Execution for insuboordination

Post by alekfenrir » 26 Dec 2017, 10:54

Wubs4Scrubs wrote:
26 Dec 2017, 09:53
I think it can be fairly argued that having a Staff Officer who is telling his CO to "Shove it up his ass." among other insults is a credible threat to the command structure. If you don't show respect to the CO they can't be sure that you'll respect their orders and may undermine them in the future.
I think, when its not broadcast over the entire ship or in other ways that affects the rest of the crew compliment, something like this would be perfect grounds for demotion. Throw them in a box for the 10-30 with a demotion, and the 2X on it for them being an officer, so conduct unbecoming with it. You’ve gotten rid of them from 20 minutes to an hour, and possibly demoted them out of the command structure.

It seems a little more realistic than splattering buddy’s brain all over the deck.
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Re: Commander Gage Baldwin Battlefield Execution for insuboordination

Post by Wubs4Scrubs » 26 Dec 2017, 10:58

alekfenrir wrote:
26 Dec 2017, 10:54
I think, when its not broadcast over the entire ship or in other ways that affects the rest of the crew compliment, something like this would be perfect grounds for demotion. Throw them in a box for the 10-30 with a demotion, and the 2X on it for them being an officer, so conduct unbecoming with it. You’ve gotten rid of them from 20 minutes to an hour, and possibly demoted them out of the command structure.

It seems a little more realistic than splattering buddy’s brain all over the deck.
I'm not arguing that the CO made the right decision. I'm simply saying I believe his actions were within his right and not rule breaking.
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Re: Commander Gage Baldwin Battlefield Execution for insuboordination

Post by Sir Lordington » 26 Dec 2017, 11:05

Nowhere in the rules is it stated that BEs are inappropriate when military police are able to deal with the situation.

You ignored the CO's orders. When confronted about it while pouring thermite on a ship wall, rather than apologise and head to the CIC immediately, you continued disobeying and told the CO to shove his orders up his ass.

You may not think this was the optimal decision but the moment you decide to disobey a CO to his face and tell them to shove it, you're at clear risk of being Battlefield Executed.

The purpose of this is not to debate wether or not there were alternatives to the execution, but to determine wether or not his actions qualified him for Battlefield Execution. It is my firm opinion that they did. We'll see what the heads decide.
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Re: Commander Gage Baldwin Battlefield Execution for insuboordination

Post by msherman94 » 26 Dec 2017, 11:25

If it's decided that he didn't violate the rules, I can accept that. The rulw does, after all, provide a lot of leeway in its wording, and leaves quite a bit up to the personal interpretation of what individual persons think is reasonable.

I would posit, in that case, that the rule should be changed, as the way in which the BE was utilized was contrary to fun, contrary to good RP, and just seemed like the CO using the BE just because he could.

Given that we're supposed to be modeled after the US Marine Corps, giving the CO unilateral undemocratic power to execute Marines for an insult seems like a rather Soviet practice to allow. No western military exists where anything remotely similar is permitted, especially not in so benign a situation as I was shot for.

I still believe the CO's actions were in bad faith, and were taken because the player thought they would be fun, rather than because there was good reason IC. I also still believe that they DID violate the intent of the BE rule, if not the letter of it.

He says he realized ICly there were no MP's, but ICly told my character to leave what was going on TO those MPs.

I do not believe there was a single point I knowingly disobeyed hus orders. If he had come to the CL room and said, "Hey get to the bridge" I would have in a heartbeat. Instead he asked me why I was still in the CL room, and continued having a conversation with me, then acted antagonistic, then shot me when my character got frustrated at said antagonism. He orchestrated the situation, then the MOMENT he had any kind of justification, gunned me down.

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Re: Commander Gage Baldwin Battlefield Execution for insuboordination

Post by Kneez » 26 Dec 2017, 13:44

I’m inputting my own opinion here as a commander with his situation.

You latejoin, marines aren’t doing too hot. Its the part of the round where OBs and Supplies are needed most, and that requires an SO. You, a command staff member, decided to try and retrieve a dead CL, who couldn’t be revived and could’ve been retrieved by the Medical researchers or just left to rot until the marines came back. He told you to go back to the cic where you said you didn’t hear it, okay. Still need to go back like ordered. Instead you insulted him, which is understandable, but a very bad idea when you just seemed to have shrugged off a direct order. From what Ed said, there were no MPs to handle this, I probably would’ve done the same thing to a disobedient SO who is now insulting me directly and even when warned about what he said, he told Ed he heard what he heard.
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Re: Commander Gage Baldwin Battlefield Execution for insuboordination

Post by Feweh » 26 Dec 2017, 16:16

For the love of god stop reporting BEs for stupid shit like this.

You insult the CO and dont follow orders?

Congrats youre getting your head blown off.

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