Very weak excuse for a BE

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RobBrown4PM
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Very weak excuse for a BE

Post by RobBrown4PM » 30 Jan 2018, 11:46

Your Byond Key: RobBrown4PM

Your Character Name: Roberto 'Taco' Moreno

Accused Byond Key(if known): Unknown

Character Name: Irene 'RB' Rockfelt

Approximate time and date of the incident (Central US Time for fastest results): 01-30-2018, at approx. 09:00hrs Mountain time

What rule(s) were broken: Questionable use of a BE

Description of the incident:

In this round I was given the duty of planning the operation as XO (Operation Jungle Fever, as dubbed by the CO). I had CHARLIE and DELTA squads scouting while BRAVO was tasked with getting power up and then securing the MSR north of the nexus, and ALPHA was tasked with building a FOB at the Nexus. The commander let me know that the FOB was a priority.

As the operation progressed and the fog came down, I had CHARLIE and DELTA move northbound past he river. Both squad's were packed tight and got downed by a very competent Queen who had gone mobile and was leading a large force of Xeno's. CHARLIE and DELTA were ordered first back to the Table fort, then back to the hydroponics bay as their position became impossible to hold.

As they headed back to hydro, I ordered BRAVO squad (Who was, or should have been) in a position to assist, given that they were supposed to be securing the MSR north of the Nexus. During this, the remainders of CHARLIE and DELTA squads got flanked by a Xeno zerg rush from the south, it was a total massacre. Long story short, the remainder of the marines got pushed back to the nexus, then to LZ1, then wiped.

After the last Alamo drop left, the commander called me over and ripped me a new one for not ordering ALPHA squad up to the hydroponics dome to assist the remnants of CHARLIE and DELTA. I had not specifically seen that order, and I may have very well missed it due to wall of text I was constantly receiving, however, I had ordered BRAVO squad up to assist as they were in a better position to support CHARLIE and DELTA given their location. Also, the commander made it quite clear that holding and maintaining the FOB was a high priority. Given ALPHA's main objective was to hold the FOB, and BRAVO was (Or should have been) on or near the MSR, I thought it efficient to have BRAVO move up. Weather it have been BRAVO or ALPHA squads moving up, the intent was still the same, I just used the more efficiently placed squad to meet that need.

The commander continued reeming me a new one, and she slapped every ounce of blame on me for the failure of the operation. I tried explaining to her everything I had just stated above, however, mid way through my explanation I got BE'd.

Evidence (screenshots, logs, etc): None at this time, however, I gladly encourage any one with the ability to do so to siff through the logs.

How you would punish the accused: The commander, IMO, over reacted to the situation. I had been asked to write out my plan to her prior to the briefing, to which I did. Originally I had ALPHA doing BRAVO's objectives, but she asked me to switch them around, to which I did, so she knew full well where BRAVO was (or should have been). I don't necessarily want to see her punished for this, I want her to understand that there was no ill-intent here on my part, and I openly question her decision to BE me, especially since she pulled it right in the middle of explaining the above to her.
Mains: Roberto 'Taco' Moreno
Usual Jobs: SL/Spec/SG/Engie/XO

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Robotic Potato
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Re: Very weak excuse for a BE

Post by Robotic Potato » 30 Jan 2018, 12:20

As I saw it that round you had not only failed to follow a crucial order you also undermined my authority on the command channel, with your initial excuse when I scolded you being, 'It wouldn't have helped anyways." in your own words.

I brought you before the CIC and gave you a chance you explain yourself and I found it inadequate, your only excuse is you failed to follow an order I stated MULTIPLE times on the command channel and instead did something else. While in all honesty it most likely wouldn't have helped just because of how damn good the xenos were that round from an IC perspective you failed me at a crucial moment that could have saved lives then said, "It wouldn't have helped anyways." of course there was going to be hell to pay.
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RobBrown4PM
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Re: Very weak excuse for a BE

Post by RobBrown4PM » 30 Jan 2018, 12:35

Robotic Potato wrote:
30 Jan 2018, 12:20
As I saw it that round you had not only failed to follow a crucial order you also undermined my authority on the command channel, with your initial excuse when I scolded you being, 'It wouldn't have helped anyways." in your own words.

I brought you before the CIC and gave you a chance you explain yourself and I found it inadequate, your only excuse is you failed to follow an order I stated MULTIPLE times on the command channel and instead did something else. While in all honesty it most likely wouldn't have helped just because of how damn good the xenos were that round from an IC perspective you failed me at a crucial moment that could have saved lives then said, "It wouldn't have helped anyways." of course there was going to be hell to pay.
I don't think that was under-manning your orders at all. In all honesty I had not heard/seen your command for Alpha to move up, I believe that you said it, however, I assure you that I did not see it at the time. With that being said, you knew the plan and you knew the positioning of the various squads. Bravo was far closer to Hydro than Alpha was, and you had told me that defense and maintenance of the FOB was of the highest priorities. Why you would choose to BE me when I made a perfectly sound decision is beyond me. Why you would BE me in the middle of my statement is even more beyond me.

Edit: I am unsure how saying "It wouldn't have made a difference sir" is under-manning your orders, after the Xeno's were so tactically adept in Hydro and wiping out 2, probably 2 and a half squads. If I were to say "Sir, that decision is dumb", or "Sir, I don't believe what you're doing is right here" that would be more on par with under-manning your orders.
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Robotic Potato
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Re: Very weak excuse for a BE

Post by Robotic Potato » 30 Jan 2018, 12:43

RobBrown4PM wrote:
30 Jan 2018, 12:35
I don't think that was under-manning your orders at all. In all honesty I had not heard/seen your command for Alpha to move up, I believe that you said it, however, I assure you that I did not see it at the time. With that being said, you knew the plan and you knew the positioning of the various squads. Bravo was far closer to Hydro than Alpha was, and you had told me that defense and maintenance of the FOB was of the highest priorities. Why you would choose to BE me when I made a perfectly sound decision is beyond me. Why you would BE me in the middle of my statement is even more beyond me.

Edit: I am unsure how saying "It wouldn't have made a difference sir" is under-manning your orders, after the Xeno's were so tactically adept in Hydro and wiping out 2, probably 2 and a half squads. If I were to say "Sir, that decision is dumb", or "Sir, I don't believe what you're doing is right here" that would be more on par with under-manning your orders.

Because what you basically said it my orders were useless firstly on the undermining area, as for you moving Bravo I believe it didn't even need to be said considering that's where they were suppose to be. There is a specific reason I ordered Alpha to be moved and that's because firstly, they were doing nothing, secondly they would have stopped any attempt at a flank or at least delayed it.

As for the the whole "The FOB is the most important thing." I told you when assigning squads the FOB was more important then making basic defenses at Hydro, I said Hydro would probably fine with only one engineer and not two which Alpha had, not it was THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.
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Re: Very weak excuse for a BE

Post by RobBrown4PM » 30 Jan 2018, 13:10

Robotic Potato wrote:
30 Jan 2018, 12:43
Because what you basically said it my orders were useless firstly on the undermining area
My intent was not to undermine your authority, surely you can see that. I was calling your attention to very real and dangerous situation.
as for you moving Bravo I believe it didn't even need to be said considering that's where they were suppose to be.


I had ordered Bravo up prior to the squads getting wiped at Hydro, it seemed like the logical thing to do at the time given their position. The MSR and Hydro are two different areas, regardless of the connection the MSR makes between the nexus hydro.
There is a specific reason I ordered Alpha to be moved and that's because firstly, they were doing nothing, secondly they would have stopped any attempt at a flank or at least delayed it.
Bravo would have been in a position to stop the flank as well had they moved up (I don't believe they ever did, at least not in force). Again, I didn't see/hear your order for Alpha to move up. Had I seen it I would have done just that, I am not one to disobey orders like that. Had you been calm and collective about the situation, and allowed me to explain my self, perhaps some some enlightenment could have occured, however, I was BE'ed before anything could be successfully deduced.


As for the the whole "The FOB is the most important thing." I told you when assigning squads the FOB was more important then making basic defenses at Hydro, I said Hydro would probably fine with only one engineer and not two which Alpha had, not it was THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.
I never said it was the most important thing, I stated you made it a priority, my orders (Without seeing/hearing your Alpha orders) reflected that.
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Simo94
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Re: Very weak excuse for a BE

Post by Simo94 » 30 Jan 2018, 13:22

Robotic Potato wrote:
30 Jan 2018, 12:43
Because what you basically said it my orders were useless firstly on the undermining area, as for you moving Bravo I believe it didn't even need to be said considering that's where they were suppose to be. There is a specific reason I ordered Alpha to be moved and that's because firstly, they were doing nothing, secondly they would have stopped any attempt at a flank or at least delayed it.

As for the the whole "The FOB is the most important thing." I told you when assigning squads the FOB was more important then making basic defenses at Hydro, I said Hydro would probably fine with only one engineer and not two which Alpha had, not it was THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.
ok lets assume what you said here is true, why would you choose to BE him then and there instead of I dont know......demoting? brigging? or even an execution in the brig by firing squads and such if he is that much of a threat to the operation, thats my problem with this whole BE rule thingy.
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Re: Very weak excuse for a BE

Post by Robotic Potato » 30 Jan 2018, 13:25

RobBrown4PM wrote:
30 Jan 2018, 13:10
My intent was not to undermine your authority, surely you can see that. I was calling your attention to very real and dangerous situation.

I had ordered Bravo up prior to the squads getting wiped at Hydro, it seemed like the logical thing to do at the time given their position. The MSR and Hydro are two different areas, regardless of the connection the MSR makes between the nexus hydro.

Bravo would have been in a position to stop the flank as well had they moved up (I don't believe they ever did, at least not in force). Again, I didn't see/hear your order for Alpha to move up. Had I seen it I would have done just that, I am not one to disobey orders like that. Had you been calm and collective about the situation, and allowed me to explain my self, perhaps some some enlightenment could have occured, however, I was BE'ed before anything could be successfully deduced.

I never said it was the most important thing, I stated you made it a priority, my orders (Without seeing/hearing your Alpha orders) reflected that.
You intent was lost on me at the moment, it's important how you phrase things.

As well while you keep going on about Bravo as as well they really have nothing to do with this, you keep saying "Well I did this instead of what I was ordered to in my defense." while that's all good you still failed to carry out the order I gave you it has no bearing on the situation at all.

As for allowing you to explain there was nothing less to deduce I understand you failed to hear my order which is a fault of your own, one that was costly to the operation trying to do something good doesn't make up for your failings.

Still you keep saying I made it your priority, I can't remember what I exactly said but what I believe it was is that it was a priority to secure the FOB over Hydro not a priority over all. There's not much more I can add to the discussion without just going in circles so I'm going to stop and allow the staff to handle it from here.
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Re: Very weak excuse for a BE

Post by Solarmare » 30 Jan 2018, 15:10

Logs during the operation, starting from the order the CO gave out for the two squads to be moved:
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Feweh
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Re: Very weak excuse for a BE

Post by Feweh » 30 Jan 2018, 15:18

Really bad BE, XO was competent and following through consistently the entire time.

I'll let Apop decide on this since he generally handles CO Apps

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Re: Very weak excuse for a BE

Post by Robotic Potato » 30 Jan 2018, 16:29

At the time I believed it to be a good idea "It wouldn't have helped anyways." was what really rubbed me the wrong way about it, to me it seemed like it was more a case of neglect.

That being said my decision was too hasty in hindsight I should have only just had him punished for neglect under Marine Law, I accept that was wholly my bad I shouldn't have jumped the gun, I mistook the situation and acted too rashly.
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Re: Very weak excuse for a BE

Post by apophis775 » 30 Jan 2018, 16:55

Remember that commanders can BE Anyone under their command at any time, for any reason. That is in accordance of Marine Law.

The Commander gave you an order, I see you giving the order, then counter-manding it yourself without clearing it, informing the commander, or receiving additional orders.

Remember that a WHITELISTED commander has authority above yours as XO. You should not be moving the units around planetside contrary to their orders.

This probably wasn't the best BE ever, but I don't see any violations of BE procedure. I can tell you are upset, because you were executed for what you thought was the right thing to do at the time, but you were not in command. You were the XO, your job is to listen and pay attention to the Commanders orders and statements, and relay that information as needed, not to make independent decisions when you are not in command.

I'll note this for future reference if there are additional BE concerns with this commander, but there is no violation in the procedure that I see.
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