Incident involving Solarflare

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Cirukcaller
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Incident involving Solarflare

Post by Cirukcaller » 18 Oct 2017, 01:41

Your Byond Key: Cirukcaller

Your Character Name: Jared Howland

Their Byond key: Solarflare

Approximate time and date of the incident (Central Us Time for best results): Oh dear. Well, it was about one-two hours from here back, and I'm uncertain what U.S Central time sides against mine own to Central America. I guess it would've been at around 11-PM 12-AM time.

Which Staff Protocols (http://www.colonial-marines.com/viewtop ... =57&t=5647) were broken: On the Protocol tab- he failed to send me a message to explain my actions, reasoning and taking of consequences. In fact, he didn't contact me whatsoever at any given time to my knowledge. I also want to say, but this one I cannot prove, that he didn't quite investigate the situation in terms of listening to my point of view. When I sent my first adminhelp in complaint to the event, he immediately - and I do mean immediately - clicked the "Its being solved." Or, if it wasn't him, it must've been another admin- sadly, a brief disconnect eliminated those logs from my reach so I'll need someone to corroborate. I sent a very lengthy adminhelp, so you can see my concern in it not being heeded to. I also sent another adminhelp with proof of the character I had issues with at the time looting me, which also went ignored and unreplied to.

Description of the incident: A non-descript player looted my character. He took my character's rifle and incinerator, leaving me with his own unmodified rifle and taking off with mine and said incinerator. I went after him, and from my previous experiences rather than enact righteous vengeance and voicing some verse from the Bible I, which logs can also corroborate, questioned him upon why he had taken my goods. He ignored me, and so I chose to go down the less lethal path- I disarmed him aiming for him to release the incinerator he was holding with one hand. Me disarming him immediately prompted him to two-hand his incinerator, to signal he was about to set me on fire, but as fate would have it my disarming him caused him to discharge and accidentally set himself on fire.

Given the incident, and himself damaged even if the intention was to retrieve my incinerator, I decided that it wasn't worth it and that I had already earned what best I could from an already shitty situation, so I left him be. Deciding to just settle for the shitty rifle with the mag light, I am about to start dismantling the rifle to set an RDS I had found closely before the incinerator man who had stolen my goods and ignored my attempts at diplomacy immediately wandered to me and set me ablaze with the flamer. He didn't just hit me with the invisible incinerating projectile, he largely fucked me with the pathing of it as well. Immediately in crit, immediately about to die, I pull out my rifle and spray him as he continues to set me ablaze. We both die. He is revived, while another player completely ICly involved in the issue undresses my character, ID and everything, before hiding my corpse in a morgue casket, which robs me of the chance of being revived and reintegrated into the round despite being the one originally wronged, and assaulted both. I voiced this as concern to the administration and, as logs will prove, it was also largely - utterly - ignored as well. Perhaps they were busy, if so I can understand, but being left in the dark before being banned for something I personally see unfair really sucks my dudes.

Evidence (screenshots, logs, etc): https://imgur.com/UotwEft Here's the proof that the player did indeed loot me wordlessly while the shuttle was being spammed with players speaking. https://i.imgur.com/1ABLcda.png Here is the reason of the ban. Me being set ablaze and looted, prior to being ignored and merely 'disarming' the player before said player set me ablaze should've been taken as improper escalation from him, rather than myself. All I did was defend myself. If firing at someone with your gun that has just set you aflames with an incinerator is improper escalation, then I personally believe re-evaluation is in order towards this rule, or maybe it just doesn't happen enough to matter.

How you would punish the accused: I honestly have no idea. I've never been an admin in this situation; I've never been a moderator in this situation, and I'm uncertain of what the administration of this server considers fair repentance for judgements that, this one in example, still haven't been considered even valid towards Solarflare in question. All in all, I figure you'd know what to do with your own more than me, really.

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NGGJamie
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Re: Incident involving Solarflare

Post by NGGJamie » 18 Oct 2017, 02:33

All right, so here's a rundown of the staff PMs between Solarmare, the SL, the third party, and you. There's a bit that was also said in staff-chat that is relevant to give the events context. Bolded lines are where he PMed the complainant for ease of spotting.
► Show Spoiler
In that 4 minute span between the last PM to Cirukcaller and his next PM to Klive45, he stated in Mod Say that you logged out while he was PMing you, so he went through with a ban.

Here are the AHelps that went through as some of them tell relevant stories.
► Show Spoiler
Attack logs between the two specifically:
► Show Spoiler
Chat logs leading up to the incident:
► Show Spoiler
Edit: The player being accused's notes:
► Show Spoiler
Synthetic Application-Leonard [Accepted] - Predator Application-Thei-De Na'Tauk [Accepted]

Synthetic: Leonard
Predator: Thei-De Na'Tauk
Server Status

Mentor: 06/28/2017 - 08/07/2017 / Trial Moderator 08/07/2017 - 08/25/17 / Moderator 08/25/17 - 10/11/17 / Trial Admin 10/11/17 - 10/30/17 / Senior Mentor 10/30/17 - 03/15/18 / Mod Manager 03/15/18 - Present

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Re: Incident involving Solarflare

Post by apophis775 » 18 Oct 2017, 02:48

Waiting to hear from Solar, but it appears there may not have been the amount of investigation we typically look for before applying a ban.

Especially since Klive has a history of doing this at least once in the past.

Also, I wouldn't totally consider it "improper escalation" if you shoot someone who is killing you with your own gun.
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flamecow wrote: "unga dunga me want the attachment" - average marine

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Re: Incident involving Solarflare

Post by Solarmare » 18 Oct 2017, 08:12

As far as I saw they did try to steal the flamer off you, and I thought the incident fine up to the point where Klive decided to fire at you with the flamer. In my opinion the flamer misfiring from the disarm spam and burning Klive was more of a tragic accident, which didn't provide enough justification to use the flamer on cirukcaller at that point. At the point where they fired, and cirukcaller fired back I had determined to be improper escalation at both ends.

The incident was a bit worse than it looked and made me need more time looking into it before doing anything, as there was a third party (the noted laslow clements) that had decided to kill cirukcaller which wasn't quite justified either but I didn't have the time to speak to them since I was dealing with the first two and the round had ended by then. As far as Klive went I only saw their note history and wasn't aware of them doing this beforehand, so I had proceeded as if they had not done it previously. I thought I had pm'd cirukaller by then, but it was entirely possible I missed pming them when dealing with the other two and couldn't ask cirukcaller since they had logged off at that point. As far as the ahelps went I gave a being handled message to them.

As far as the pm's to cirukcaller were, I had tried pming them earlier but they seem to had logged off by then, the pm's you see to them were near the end of me looking into it as I had mistaken it for cirukaller logging back in and then realizing they was still offline. The reason I had banned then them is they were specifically warned to ahelp when they were being griefed such as having lethal forced used improperly against them in this case, and as they were logged off by then I couldn't notify circukaller of why I was applying it.

To summarize it all, I viewed it as a case of improper escalation on all of the three parties involved. Klive didn't seem to give much interation besides stealing the incinerator and firing at cirukaller when it misfired, as well as their apparent history of assaulting others which should be noted if true, as I was unaware of it and didn't quite have a way to be aware of it I think. I thought cirukaller justified in their actions until they fired back at klive, and had given me enough detail on their end with their ahelps though I had failed to pm cirukaller as I was PMing the other two about their actions at the time. It was a situation that ended up turning into grief between three players in my opinion. Perhaps I had misjudged by considering it improper escalation, but I believe I looked enough into it to justify my decision at that point.

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Re: Incident involving Solarflare

Post by Cirukcaller » 18 Oct 2017, 11:10

I apologize for disconnecting. I felt ignored, waited around for a response, and just made the improper assumption that for whatever reason I was no longer part of the negotiating table of the problem that happened. I was betwixt a divide of "Okay pal, we saw what happened and we're dealing with it" so I assumed that's why my PM's went unanswered, and the less optimistic; the also less correct "We're too busy to care," but as you can tell from one of the spoilers there, I was upset. Upset due to yet again being drawn into a completely unfair situation due to players just refusing to dialogue their problems and instead loot&pull into hostilities that weren't necessary, namely looting my character while my attention was elsewhere. Voiced goes that I did try to talk to him towards the matter, and he ignored me, its why the disarming begun.

I'll completely understand the fault that I should've PM'd upon being griefed, but I'm trying to pry here for understanding that its mere instinct that if someone sets you on fire you respond by firing back at them. I want to say that I'm the embodiment of calmness and neutrality in these matters, but truth is - as far as emotions go and I go - if someone decides to let their flamer purposefully on you immersion and OOC-bound reaction binds you to shoot back at them. I did, however, immediately adminhelp once the situation had concluded. The reason I make this complaint is because I'm frightfully meaning to not let any slight pass towards my account's notes- I don't want to paint myself any more horribly than my notes already dictate, and I genuinely care about retaining the bare minimum of understanding that I'm not the terrible human being first glance notes denote me as. That's why, saying that I improperly escalated an issue with a marine - and not just a marine, a Delta Squad leader from whom I personally would expect more seriousness - who set me on fire with a flamer, meant to go for my notes, truly hinged me on a wrong angle, you know? Its nothing personal against Solarmare, I'm sure he's got to deal with eleven situations on this angle everyday.

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Re: Incident involving Solarflare

Post by Solarmare » 18 Oct 2017, 11:36

Hm, it's not really too much against you personally. I just tend to punish each person who carries out improper escalation because they specifically make things worse, even if it's in response. Like in this case, firing back gave a reason for the delta marine who shot you to death afterwards a reason to actually fire at you.

It's best just to ahelp, as responding back to grief with grief only encourages more I've found. I suppose I can say I considered all of it an improper escalation as it was a case where three people ended up trying to kill each other because one of them tried to steal an incinerator, which seems like an absurd result over a weapon.

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Re: Incident involving Solarflare

Post by Cirukcaller » 18 Oct 2017, 12:41

Well, to say that three people ended up trying to kill each other because one of them tried to steal an incinerator isn't what happened whatsoever. One actually took said incinerator, he ignored any attempt at its original owner to retrieve it, his attempt at flaming said owner who tried to disarm him for retrieving it culminated in him accidentally setting himself ablaze. In response, he tries to kill the owner, who kills him in return with the help of another PFC who witnessed him first attempting to kill said owner of the incinerator. It was more-so two players trying to kill one player, it being myself, this wasn't a triangle of sorts at any given point. It was very specific, actually.

And I didn't respond to grief with grief- I was griefed, and merely acted from an IC point that made sense, which was to defend my character's survival by shooting at the player. This isn't goon- I like to pretend there's a possibility to portray a character, and its ingrained in me to avoid breaking immersion as much as is possible. Sadly, when a marine SL decides to torch my character because he's butthurt he managed to set himself on fire that goes under the radar of it.

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Re: Incident involving Solarflare

Post by Solarmare » 18 Oct 2017, 13:21

Refer to our rules on grief, specifically that even if that wasn't your intention it can still be considered so, as far as I was concerned the situation shouldn't have occurred where they shot you with the flamer making it grief from that point. I would say responding to it with lethal force was grief, even if it may have made sense to you IC, as it only made the situation worse and encouraged the PFC to fire at you when it could have been handled appropriately otherwise by just ahelping. The SL was dealt with as well, the main difference would be they did not have a history of improper escalation as far as I was aware and you actually did.

In the end my opinion was that an incinerator being taken and misfiring on them when you tried to retrieve it wasn't enough justification for them to fire at you, but that didn't really give you justification to fire back when you could have just ahelped.

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Re: Incident involving Solarflare

Post by Feweh » 18 Oct 2017, 14:45

I mean, if someone flamethrowered me id probably try to kill them.

The difference though, is trying to decipher was it accidental or intentional in a moments notice.

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Re: Incident involving Solarflare

Post by Solarmare » 18 Oct 2017, 15:39

I would suppose in the end it's whether the use of the flamethrower on them was justified, if it was them the response would have been fine. I didn't see much roleplay between the two and as far as I was concerned the incident shouldn't have occurred in the first place, so I judged it to be an improper escalation on their part.

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Re: Incident involving Solarflare

Post by Cirukcaller » 18 Oct 2017, 23:46

Well, the player has already admitted in the logs that he did indeed flamethrower me purposefully rather than accidentally. And it was purposefully, he accidentally set himself on fire as well after I disarmed him meaning to grab my flamethrower back, and his reaction - as I've said - was to actively try to kill me with his flamethrower for this mistake which was his alone. He chose to two-hand his flamethrower as I'm disarming him, 100% meaning to use it on me since for what other reason? And this in turn caused it to discharge in front of him as he tried to gain distance from me, so setting himself on fire. A person who didn't try to escalate when someone is disarming them doesn't 2 hand their incinerator to set them on fire. This guy was the one who improperly escalated from the start, all I did was defend myself- someone setting you on fire with an incinerator and you shooting them back for it is no "improper escalation" from my part. Its completely fair in terms of self-defense. He's the one who improperly escalated to the point of taking me completely out of the round with the help of another marine, who pulled off my ID. I still hold myself to the fact that I did nothing wrong other than leave the server assuming my adminhelps had been ignored.

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Re: Incident involving Solarflare

Post by Feweh » 04 Nov 2017, 02:30

This is resolved

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